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VachonOffline
Temat postu: Helena Sabatowna in Bihale, Lubaczow, Podkarpackie  PostWysłany: 31-12-2019 - 19:38


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I ran into something unusual working my wife's ancestry. I'm wondering if someone would have an explanation.

Helena Sabatowna is the wife of Konstantyn Pochodaj from the Greek Catholic parish in Bihale. At the birth of their son Grzegorz in 1788 the entry in the registry says of her "Helena uxor Simeon Romanow de Szczutków" every other entry she is called Helena Sabatow, De Sabaty, Sabatowna or other similar variations.

How could she be the wife of Simeon Romanow if Grzegorz is the legitimate son of Konstantyn and Helena. Did the priest meant widow of Simeon? The registry in Bihale and Szczutków don't go far back enough to find any of these marriages.

This brings me to my next question, they have a daughter Anna Pochodaj in 1797. She married a Jakub Faj and at the baptism of their son Jan she is named "Anna de Sabaty" . Why would she use her mother's maiden name? Everywhere else she is named as Anna Pochodaj.

Thank you for the help
 
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Kamiński_JanuszOffline
Temat postu: Helena Sabatowna in Bihale, Lubaczow, Podkarpackie  PostWysłany: 10-01-2020 - 13:36
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what years is this problem about? you can provide the numbers of these files, and preferably - links to their scans

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Janusz

Szukam informacji o polskiej szkole i sierocińcu, zorganizowanych przez Związek Patriotów Polskich w mieście Atbasar w Kazachstanie w latach 1943-1946, oraz o powrocie sierot do Gostynina i Kwidzyna
 
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Krystyna.wawOffline
Temat postu:   PostWysłany: 10-01-2020 - 19:13
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You didn't show links to the documents, so that's just guessing.
Maybe the latin word "de" means "from".
Something like: Matthaeus de Cracovia = Mateusz from Cracow.

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Krystyna
*** Szarlip, Zakępscy, Broczkowscy - tych nazwisk szukam.
 
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sirdanielOffline
Temat postu:   PostWysłany: 11-01-2020 - 21:33
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While its true that "de" might be also "from" like de Szczutków (from the village Szczutków), that does not explain everything.

I will try to do some logic deduction.
First of all, Sabatówna with -ówna suffix points outs it is Helena's maiden name. Original name without suffix would be Sabat or Sabaty or similar. Quite logical statement is that Simeon Romanów was deceased at the Grzegorz birth. You may look for Simeon's death record before 1788.

Another thing is Anna. I ve heard there was tradition, that at the polish-ukrainian borders, daughter was taking mother's belief, while son was taking father's belief, at mixed marriages. Anna de Sabaty meaning would be "after the mother maiden Name". Wonder if that was really mixed marriage or both parents were greekcatholics.

Final conclusion would be easier to reach, after reading more scans and birth records of other people from parish, and see what was the rules, maybe specific customs, see the pattern. Well, eventually both cases might have been just priest errors, misspellings.

I didnt find village Sabat, Sabaty or z Sabatów (from Sabatów) near Lubaczów. The very last resort of meaning "de" in Your case, would be meaning "of the" Sabat Coat of Arms, but internet gives no clues about such coat of arms name.

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VachonOffline
Temat postu:   PostWysłany: 13-01-2020 - 19:42


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Thank you for the replies!

These are the scans:

Gregorius Pochodaj 5 Feb 1788 http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/56/ ... _00006.jpg

Jan Faj 12 Feb 1828 http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/56/ ... _00150.jpg

This is Anna's baptism (Hanuska) 9 Aug 1797 http://www.skany.przemysl.ap.gov.pl/56/ ... _00030.jpg

All in Bihale Greek Catholic parish. The records don't go before that year. Couldn't find a Simeon in the death record.
 
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ArtsanonOffline
Temat postu:   PostWysłany: 21-01-2020 - 21:45
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Hi, Vachon,
I took a look at your files, and scanned the microfilm from the beginning to about page 105.
Based on what I saw, I'm not convinced that Constantine Pochoday and Kose Pochoday are the same person.

So you have,
p. 06, Gregorius son of Konstantin Pochoday & Helena uxor Simeon Romanow of Szczutkow.
p. 23, Maruska v Maria, daughter of Kose Pochoday and Wolena Sabacicha
p. 26, Jewka (Ewa), daughter of Kose Pochoday & Wołena Semczyszyna
p. 30, Hanuska, daughter of Kose Pochoday & Wołena Sabatowna
p. 66 Constantinus Pochoday as witness/godfather to the birth of Joannes Sikora
p. 98, birth record of a boy named Constantinus, and right below it, Constantinus Pochoday as witness/godfather to a girl named Fevronia.

My point here is that the names Kose and Constantine are both being used in the record book. In this Pochoday family, Kose and Constantinus are likely to be different men, and Helena and Wolena/Wołena are also probably different women. Kose also shows up as a given name in other records, as do both Wołena and Helena, so these names aren't necessarily interchangeable.

Also, during the same time period there are several births of other Pochoday children in house #14 in Bihale, whose fathers are not Kose nor Constantine, so this is a large extended family home, not a home for a modern style nuclear family, which increases the likelihood that Constantin and Kose are not the same person but two related men living in the same household.

Just some food for thought for you.
Wink

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Pozdrawiam,
Dorota
 
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VachonOffline
Temat postu:   PostWysłany: 22-01-2020 - 17:00


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Hi Dorota,

Thank you for your reply and taking the time to look into it. I did notice other couples lived in the same house, Wolexa Pochodaj et Maruska, and later on Constantine's sons Gregorius and Joannes for example.

For the Kosc and Constantine, my reasoning was that one priest (Antoni Krowicki) kept the names in the registry with latin spelling while the other priest (Jacobi Ztonkiewicz) kept the polish/ukrainian spelling. I assumed the chances of having two couple Constantine-Helena in the same house to be minimal since there were only one baptism for a Hanuska Pochodaj daughter of Kosc and one marriage for Anna Pochodaj daughter of Constantine.
 
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