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Wolski_M92 |
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Temat postu:
 Wysłany: 15-12-2018 - 15:02
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Dołączył: 07-12-2018
Posty: 117
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Thank you for the links. I think Romuald Otkiewicz could be the right person, also his age is correct.
The name of mother Anna Nałkowska is right but the information about her age differs. In the act of marriage in 1837 (that I also knew about) she is told to be 21. So she should be born around 1816. In 1841 at the birth of Maria Franciszka Katarzyna (see the link you gave to me), her mother is again only 21 years old. How is that possible?
And Marya Otkiewicz, the daughter of Romuald and Anna, should be born around 1845, because at her marriage with her husband Boleslaw Wolski in 1866 she was 20 (no. 50: http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... -050.jpg). As Marya died in May 1867 she was 21 years old (no. 90 http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... Q0NTViNQ).
So I think Maria Franciszka Katarzyna (born 1841), that you found, could be Marya's older sister. But I don't think it's "my" Marya. In every document they say that she was born in Drozgow. And it's still strange why Anna was always 21.
Edit:
Now I see that even the age of Romuald differs a lot. 1837 at the marriage with Anna he is 38. At the birth of his daughter Maria Franciszka Katarzyna in 1841 he is 41. So far so good - so he must be born around 1799/1800. But then his son Eugeniusz is born two years later in 1843 and there Romuald is told to be 33 but should be 43! (see 188: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1647/0/2 ... 4j6UahWQw) That must be a mistake in 1843, because in 1867, as he died, he was 68. So must be born around 1799/1800. Or the Romuald Otkiewicz in 1843 is another person. |
Ostatnio zmieniony przez Wolski_M92 dnia 15-12-2018 - 16:04, w całości zmieniany 2 razy
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Krystyna.waw |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 15-12-2018 - 15:53
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Dołączył: 28-04-2016
Posty: 4208
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Wolski_M92 |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 15-12-2018 - 16:37
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Dołączył: 07-12-2018
Posty: 117
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Thank you Krystyna. I will check it.
The Otkiewicz's are originally coming from Dawidgródek (Pinsk Powiat) - at least Romuald and his brother Stanisław and their parents of course (Kazimierz Otkiewicz, Krystyna Czerwińska). So maybe that's an explanation why the name Otkiewicz is not popular. The Otkiewiczs' are driving me a little bit crazy ... I see that there is another couple with very similar/identical names: Raymond Otkiewicz and his wife Anna Nałkowska!  Raymond and Anna are quite in the same age like Romuald and Anna. I could think, ok Raymond is Romuald and Anna is in both cases the same person. But who would call himself occasionally with different names? What do you think about these two couples? http://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php?page_id=766 |
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Krystyna.waw |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 15-12-2018 - 17:57
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Dołączył: 28-04-2016
Posty: 4208
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From lubgens:
M 1837 Romuald - bachelor, ex-army officer (mate)
B 1839 Kajetan in Pawłów - his father Rajmund
B 1840 Rajmund in Biskupice - his father Romuald is lease-holder of the Siostrzytów
B 1843 Eugeniusz in Biskupice -his father Romuald
Their mother is always the same, so  ))
Rajmund and Romuald are both of German origin, seemed strange and alien for old Poles, I suppose.
My grant...mother was baptised as Angella (not popular). After that she always was Aniela (Polish ordinary name).
In Lubgens every parish - left Abramowice, Abramów, etc. - has on right side "Nazwiska w parafii" means "names in this parish"
http://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php ... 1052&par=7
She was indexed as Olkiewicz:
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1647/0/2 ... RsClmKt2hQ
Check other Olkiewiczs' |
_________________
Krystyna
*** Szarlip, Zakępscy, Kowszewicz, Broczkowscy - tych nazwisk szukam.
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Wolski_M92 |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 15-12-2018 - 22:16
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Dołączył: 07-12-2018
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So maybe Romuald and Rajmund/Raymond shared a wife, why not.. if she was hot.   No, I still don't know what to think, it's all so weird.
I just discovered another thing: There is a famous Polish geographer called Wacław Nałkowski (https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wac%C5%82aw_Na%C5%82kowski). His father Michał Dionizy Jan Nałkowski (1820-1871) was a son of Michał Nałkowski and Zuzanna Hubryków (or Ubryków or Ubryk). And now comes a possible connection to my family tree: Anna Nałkowska (the wife of Romuald/Raymond Otkiewicz) was a daughter of Michał Nałkowski and Zuzanna. The problem is, I don't know the maiden name of Zuzanna, because it's not mentioned in the act of marriage between Anna and Romuald (no. 57: http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1893/0/2.4/40/skan/full/TDq-ZPkV34DdrvisxIldFA) . Further I don't know if Michał Dionizy Jan had a sister. Does anyone know it? Here is a long article about Wacław Nałkowski and his family: http://dawny.pl/waclaw-nalkowski/ . I see there another possible connection to Anna (see footnote no. 12): Michał Nałkowski died quite early and his wife Zuzanna married a second time, then moved from Lublin to Siestrzewitów (today: Siostrzytów) and lived there with his new husband Jan Hryniewicz and son Michał Dionizy Jan. No more children are mentioned. But Anna got at least one or more children in that village and her husband Romuald was lease-holder there. Only a coincidence?
Would you also please tell me where Anna lived until her marriage with Romuald? Can you see it in the act of marriage (link above)? |
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EwaMolly |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 14:08
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Dołączył: 12-07-2018
Posty: 175
Skąd: Kielce/Poznań
Status: Offline
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| She was born in Lublin, lived in Krzywa Wola. |
_________________
Ewa
Poszukuje nazwisk: Sudwoj, Rębosz. Wszelkie informacje o Chromińskich z okolic Warszawy również mile widziane.
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Wolski_M92 |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 17:37
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Dołączył: 07-12-2018
Posty: 117
Skąd: Niemcy
Status: Offline
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Thank you. That's quite an important information. I thought she was born in Krzywowola. Now that I know that she was born in Lublin it makes even more sense to believe that Michał Dionizy Jan Nałkowski and Jan Kajetan Nałkowski, who were also born in Lublin, are her brothers.
As I wrote yesterday, I suspected that Zuzanna Hubryków is Anna's mother. I now strongly believe that, because Zuzanna's second husband Jan Hryniewicz is mentioned in two documents from 1838 and 1839 at the death of Jan Otkiewicz (possibly a brother of Romuald/Raymond) and at the death of Anna's son Kaietan Otkiewicz. After 1839 Jan Hryniewicz is not mentioned any more. That's logical because he died in 1840. Would be nice if anyone could find his death metrics so that I could read if Romuald/Raymond is a witness. After 1840 I discovered a Zuzanna Hryniewicz in two documents (at the birth of Anna's and Romuald's daughter Maria Franciszka Katarzyna and birth of son Eugeniusz Leopold). That is Zuzanna Hubryków as a widow with her new name of her deceised second husband. Why should Zuzanna Hubryków (Nałkowska/Hryniewicz) be a witness/godmother of two children of Anna and Romuald if she hadn't something to do with them? I think it's quite clear that she must be her mother. What do you think?
What I now need to find is a birth record of Anna Nałkowska in Lublin (born between 1815 and 1821). I didn't find it yet. Does anyone have a link? Also a death record of Anna as Anna Otkiewicz is needed. She was living at last in Zgórsko (near Checiny). In 1867 she was still alive I think.
Concerning Romuald Otkiewicz I suspect that he had a second name Raymond or Raymund. Maybe that's an explanation why there is a Romuald and sometimes a Raymond/Raymund Otkiewicz in the documents. One of Romuald's sons is named "Raymund Gorgoniusz Adryan" - so he may have chosen the name "Raymund" after his own second name. Since 1840 I didn't see a Raymond Otkiwicz anymore only Romuald. Raymond appeared only in the years 1838/39. To be 100% sure that he's one person named Romuald Raymund Otkiewicz (born around 1799/1800), I need a birth record, that should be in Dawidgrodek. But I have no source where I can look for it. It should be a catholic church. Can anyone find it?
Edit:
I found the act of wedding (1826 in Lublin) between Zuzanna Hubryków and Jan Hryniewicz here (no. 22): https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1859/0/2 ... Mmjp5BeMLA
Is the name Hubryków right? Or should it be Hubryk? |
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EwaMolly |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 20:02
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Dołączył: 12-07-2018
Posty: 175
Skąd: Kielce/Poznań
Status: Offline
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no. 22
Marriage between Jan Hryniewicz, lieutenant of Ułan division, 39 years and Zuzanna Franciszka Hubryk Nałkowska (not sure which surname is her maiden one), for two years or more she is a widow, doughter of Ludwik and Barbara Hubryk.
The surname is Hubryk.
It looks like Zuzanna is, in fact, her mother or at least someone close to the family.
Edit: She also sign herself as Zuzanna Hubryk Hryniewicz in the act. |
_________________
Ewa
Poszukuje nazwisk: Sudwoj, Rębosz. Wszelkie informacje o Chromińskich z okolic Warszawy również mile widziane.
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Wolski_M92 |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 20:13
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Dołączył: 07-12-2018
Posty: 117
Skąd: Niemcy
Status: Offline
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| Thank you for the translation. If her maiden surname if "Hubryk", why does she subscribe with "z Hubrików"? Is it a grammatic rule to add an "ów" to the name? |
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Arek_Bereza |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 20:39
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Dołączył: 26-06-2015
Posty: 5780
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Wolski_M92 |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 20:56
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Dołączył: 07-12-2018
Posty: 117
Skąd: Niemcy
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Thank you. Is "Hubryk" a Polish surname? It sounds strange to me?
In the document is also mentioned Zuzanna's place of birth. I read there "Koninsko-wola" and didn't find such a place on the map. The most similar name is "Końskowola" and it's near Lublin. Do you think it's the right village? |
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Arek_Bereza |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 21:09
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Dołączył: 26-06-2015
Posty: 5780
Status: Offline
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Yes it is Końskowola
what does it mean polish surname for you? Does my surname is polish for you or not
Look at lubgens - Hubryks lived in Końskowola in XVIII century. What does it mean ? It means only that they lived there at this time. Hubryks lived also close to Płock - use geneteka you will find them also in Ukraine, but in 1701 Ukraine didn`t exist So is it a polish, ukrainian, russian surname ? |
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Wolski_M92 |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 22:36
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Dołączył: 07-12-2018
Posty: 117
Skąd: Niemcy
Status: Offline
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Very interesting, thank you for the information. I will go on investigating all these Hubryks. I found the name on Czech websites. So I thought maybe it could be Czech. Who knows where they came from in the centuries before 1701.
If your surname is Bereza, than I would say it doesn't sound typically Polish for me. It sounds more Russian, like берёза. But I'm not an expert of Polish names, of course.
By the way. I'm also doeing research on other branches of my family tree. Another surname is Budziarek. It sounds Polish to me, but there are extremely few people with that name in Poland. I suspect that the original name was changed - they were Germans living in Poland. Do you think the name Budziarek is of Polish origin? |
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Arek_Bereza |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 22:42
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Dołączył: 26-06-2015
Posty: 5780
Status: Offline
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| Budziarek? extremely few people ? come on, use geneteka |
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Wolski_M92 |
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Temat postu:
Wysłany: 16-12-2018 - 22:55
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Dołączył: 07-12-2018
Posty: 117
Skąd: Niemcy
Status: Offline
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| Ok, you're right, there are much more Budziareks than I thought. But I didn't see so many Budziareks outside that database. So it must be a Polish name. They were Germans in Poland, why did they have a Polish name? But for that Budziarek family I will make a seperate thread later. I don't want to mix it with the Wolski thread. |
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