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Temat postu: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) born 1897
 Wysłany: 21-04-2024 - 21:52
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Dołączył: 21-04-2024
Posty: 6
Status: Offline
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Dear all, I am writing from Estonia. My great grandmother Mathilde (Matylde) Neumann (Neiman/Najman) was born in Poland supposedly on 30.01.1897. She died in Tallinn in 1970.
I am looking for her origins and ancestors in Poland. Her geni profile: https://www.geni.com/people/Mathilde-Ka ... 6700851945
From her archived application documents for Estonian citizenship from 1935 I see she has told that she was born in Wereszczyn district. Her mother's name was Marta Neiman. Fathers name she did not tell or remember. Supposedly, her father died of illness when she was 3 years old (1900?). She had a younger sister. Her mother and sister died in an accident when she was 8 years old(1905?). And her mother's parents were Ludwik and Henrietta. She might have later lived with these relatives near Radom, possibly in Jedlnia. It was a big family with many aunts and uncles, probably from the mother's side. She ran away some time before 1917 when she was a teenager and never had any contact with them again. Their home language was German. But she looks like someone of Jewish origin. She stated that she had sent her original birth certificate and baptism certificate to the Polish Consulate in Tallinn in 1925 with an application for a Polish passport and never received the passport or documents back. I have no idea if any of these statements are true, but here in the database I found the "lubelskie" records of Ludwik Nejman with wife Henrietta Fierlow and daughter Augusta Henrietta, who married in 1901 Wiktor Herman. I am unable to find any records about Marta and her daughters. Can anyone here help me to find proof of her origin? |
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Temat postu: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) born 1897
Wysłany: 22-04-2024 - 12:05
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Dołączył: 02-03-2020
Posty: 1327
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Hi.
Wereszczyn is pretty well indexed in lubgens, but to my surprise, there are no Neumann born in given period. Well, not quite none, but only one birth in 1898 but to different parents, also both them are known... Maybe she didn't know the real birth place? Marta doesn't seem to be a Jewish name |
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Pozdrawiam, Irek
Moderator
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PillePork |
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Temat postu: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) born 1
Wysłany: 22-04-2024 - 19:24
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Dołączył: 21-04-2024
Posty: 6
Status: Offline
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Hello Irek,
Thank you very much for your reaction! She maybe did not know, or did not want to tell the truth. I assume she was of jewish origin and did not want to tell, since it was dangerous at that time. In her stories she always told that they spoke german language at home and that her father was of Polish origin. She newer mentioned anything jewish about her (I assume because of fear). I also have assumed, that normally at that time people were identified by fathers name. There is jewish name Mordka (male) and here for locals it might sound like Marta. Since all what she has said is written down by other people - she did not write (and I am not sure at all how much she could read) - she just might have adjusted her stories to avoid questions. To my mother she has told that the family lived near Radom (possibly in Jedlnia). I searched some online Jewish databases and there is abundance of Neiman/Naiman persons there in that timeframe. Another story is that her father had been photographer in Krakow. She was 3 when he died of illness (possibly meningitis). I assume that all the stories she told my mother, were true - that in the family they called her Tilde, so Matylde/Mathilde really was her given name, not made up. That she had many aunts and uncles and that her grandmothers name was Henriette. That she was 8 when her mother and sister died etc. To what she has told officials (that she was baptized in german church), I am not sure how much is truth. I also do not know if the family name Neimann she used did come from the fathers or mothers side. So this is a true puzzle and that is why I am so stuck... I have been thinking that maybe there is a way to trace her birth certificate & baptism document she supposedly took to Polish Consulate in Tallinn in 1925. Maybe thers are still in some diplomatic archive in Poland somewhere... |
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Temat postu: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) born 1
Wysłany: 22-04-2024 - 20:49
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Dołączył: 02-03-2020
Posty: 1327
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| You always can try to get in touch with Polish authorities. Do you have Mathilda's marriage certificate. I guess there should be details about her parents or mother. I've seen you already collected great amount of documents, but my Estonian is non existent |
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Pozdrawiam, Irek
Moderator
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Temat postu: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) born 1
Wysłany: 15-06-2024 - 17:28
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Dołączył: 26-03-2019
Posty: 939
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Pille,
I found only the birth certificate of Matylda Neumann, daughter of Emma Neumann - in 2 versions:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3QZ-C3B3-8?i=265&cat=2562555
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/fa6fcc7d5061a21b2308ee3fc9e797d3cfec7fd10891888d03db8c421e128778
This Matylda was born on 30 January/11 February 1897 in Radawczyk. In 1899, her birth was reported by Henrietta Neumann, a midwife, aged 60.
I believe Henrietta died in 1905 and her maiden name was Dreger - her death certificate, in 2 versions:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L99H-8BLG?i=134&wc=QZW1-QMW%3A1588932888%2C1588932897%2C1588932896%2C1589087997&cc=2564996
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/15ae97e6698a339862c118eb4d2fdcf571f0affb1d228e46a794bd211485404a
and her husband was Martin - here the marriage certificate of Henrietta and Martin:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/7f21a1e0df78703c700b1a496bf7da3054c095812c92a5264d1709c60921a845
Marriage certificates of Paulina and Augusta Henrietta, daughters of Ludwik and Henrietta:
https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.ph ... 901&pair=1
are here:
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=1053&se=&sy=4520&kt=1892&plik=05-06.jpg&x=6&y=636&zoom=2
https://skanoteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=1512&se=&sy=1901&kt=2&plik=008-009.jpg&x=3&y=779&zoom=1.5
Ludwik and Henrietta married in Konin (Henrietta was a widow):
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/b9402543ff8a97d6bfe73779d91c80797500b883cad8cefe7cb7bf0ac059e4c7
Everywhere - in her birth certificate, in the 2 marriage certificates and in the 2 marriage certificates of her daughters - Henrietta appears as Henrietta, not Beata Henrietta.
Marriage certificates from the Greater Poland area found in the Poznan Project database:
https://poznan-project.psnc.pl/search.php
I noticed also, you probably already have, the birth certificate of Olga-Reet:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6SSS-1DM?i=45&cc=1932350&cat=651958
Pozdrawiam.
***
Pille,
znalazłam tylko akt urodzenia Matyldy Neumann, córki Emmy Neumann - w 2 wersjach:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3QZ-C3B3-8?i=265&cat=2562555
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/fa6fcc7d5061a21b2308ee3fc9e797d3cfec7fd10891888d03db8c421e128778
Owa Matylda urodziła się 30 stycznia/11 lutego 1897 roku w Radawczyku. W 1899 roku, jej urodzenie zgłosiła Henrietta Neumann, akuszerka, lat 60.
Sądzę, że Henrietta zmarła w 1905 roku a jej rodowe nazwisko to Dreger - jej akt zgonu, w 2 wersjach:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L99H-8BLG?i=134&wc=QZW1-QMW%3A1588932888%2C1588932897%2C1588932896%2C1589087997&cc=2564996
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/15ae97e6698a339862c118eb4d2fdcf571f0affb1d228e46a794bd211485404a
a jej mężem był Martin - tutaj akt małżeństwa Henrietty i Martina:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/7f21a1e0df78703c700b1a496bf7da3054c095812c92a5264d1709c60921a845
Akty małżeństw Pauliny i Augusty Henrietty, córek Ludwika i Henrietty:
https://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.ph ... 901&pair=1
są tutaj:
https://metryki.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=1053&se=&sy=4520&kt=1892&plik=05-06.jpg&x=6&y=636&zoom=2
https://skanoteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php?op=pg&id=1512&se=&sy=1901&kt=2&plik=008-009.jpg&x=3&y=779&zoom=1.5
Ludwik i Henrietta małżeństwo zawarli w Koninie (Henrietta była wdową):
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/b9402543ff8a97d6bfe73779d91c80797500b883cad8cefe7cb7bf0ac059e4c7
Wszędzie - w akcie urodzenia, w aktach 2 małżeństw i w 2 aktach małżeństw córek - Henrietta występuje jako Henrietta, nie Beata Henrietta.
Akty małżeństw z terenu Wielkopolski odnalezione w bazie Poznan Project:
https://poznan-project.psnc.pl/search.php
Zauważyłam jeszcze, zapewne już masz, akt urodzenia Olgi-Reet:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6SSS-1DM?i=45&cc=1932350&cat=651958
Pozdrawiam. |
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Elża
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PillePork |
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Temat postu: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) born 1
Wysłany: 26-06-2024 - 20:55
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Dołączył: 21-04-2024
Posty: 6
Status: Offline
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Dear Elża, Thank you so much for your kind help! I could not have found them without you!
I think this is surely the right family and the right Mathilda! The place name also matches! Jelino. My mother, Mathildes granddaughter, has written the name down from hearing it from her stories as Jalina. I was not sure, what place it is. I can't find it by this name on Google maps.
I have so many new questions now....
Why do you think her father's name on the birth certificate is crossed out? Can you read, what the fathers name is?
I speak German, so I understand the printed text.
Is there a note: unehelich? or I read it wrong? Were her parents married?
?? Heinrich Milbradt? 32 years old. from Jelino. I can't understand his occupation/stand.
From this document - does it give a hint - were they members of some church? Since the document is in German - does it mean they were members of German church?
What Mathilde has told, she might have not known the true facts or names. She lost her parents at a young age, so she was an orphan and was raised by relatives or strangers. She could not read and write so she could only rely on what people had told her and what she remembered from early childhood.
I am so happy, you found her! Thank you!!!! |
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Temat postu: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) born 1
Wysłany: 27-06-2024 - 19:15
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Dołączył: 26-03-2019
Posty: 939
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Pille, proszę bardzo 
In my opinion, the man's data was entered by mistake, crossed out and, yes, entered: Unehelich.
But for the translation from German I would suggest you turn here:
https://genealodzy.pl/PNphpBB2-viewforum-f-45.phtml
In the act in Russian I read: father unknown and mother unmarried Emma Neumann age 27.
There was also Otto Neumann - his birth/baptism certificate is here, no. 120/1900:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/477a7e79928dd03c46431c20693f4677a7c926d287d512b94781a26c0264d7da
born in Plouszowice 23 December 1899/4 January 1900, father unknown and mother unmarried Emma Neumann age 27.
Otto died 11/24 October 1904 in Jelino, it says he was born in Radawczyk - act 266/1904:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/skan/-/skan/b760051821ec7d002641172ac8b6a28c1cbda9f0bb04a1844bd05290bc670fab
I also do not find the village of Jelino on the map, on the internet I find that Jelino was a colony in the municipality of Wola Wereszczyńska.
The persons appearing in the records were of Evangelical Augsburg Confession.
I can't find Emma's death certificate, but I'll have a look around
Edit:
I have just found a marriage certificate - 46/1908:
Gustaw Kieniec and Emma Marta Neumann maiden 36 years old, residing with her sister in Jelino, born in Krasin in Prussia, daughter of the late Martin and Henrietta nee Dreger:
https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/skan/-/skan/1bbf6446f21c76f8f6ad4cce462eee2c0a4b1f4c80ee999fe3e92cf0f68fc1ca
Perhaps Matylda was sent away to relatives after/before Emma Marta's marriage?
Here is the entry in the draft - item one:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G99H-8GTW?i=148&wc=QZW1-Q8N%3A1588932888%2C1588932897%2C1588932896%2C1589087951&cc=2564996 |
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Elża
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PillePork |
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Temat postu: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) born 1
Wysłany: 27-06-2024 - 21:26
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Dołączył: 21-04-2024
Posty: 6
Status: Offline
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PillePork |
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Temat postu: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) born 1
Wysłany: 28-06-2024 - 11:51
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Dołączył: 21-04-2024
Posty: 6
Status: Offline
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Dear Elża, thank you very much again!
I always knew Matilda's story was a sad story. Probably the only person who raised her with love was her grandmother Henrietta. Matylda always told her mother died, when she was 7, but it was actually her grandmother who died then.
She told she lived with her aunts family. I see in Family Search, there was Emilie Alwine Neumann, sister of Emma Martha.
Are there any records from "peoples counts" from that period? Where they counted and listed all people in the household?
With help of old maps, I found Jelino. It was below todays Zamłyniec below the round lake. The area is in the upper left corner of this map. http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/41-51.jpg |
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Temat postu: Re: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) bo
Wysłany: 28-06-2024 - 17:57
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Dołączył: 26-03-2019
Posty: 939
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PillePork napisał:
Are there any records from "peoples counts" from that period? Where they counted and listed all people in the household?
Pille,
unfortunately, I cannot find such documents for the localities you are interested in.
Very interesting map! |
_________________
Elża
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Krystyna.waw |
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Temat postu: Re: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann) bo
Wysłany: 28-06-2024 - 19:53
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Dołączył: 28-04-2016
Posty: 4461
Status: Offline
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PillePork |
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Temat postu: RE: Re: RE: Looking for ancestors of Matylde Najman (Neumann
Wysłany: 01-07-2024 - 16:29
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Dołączył: 21-04-2024
Posty: 6
Status: Offline
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| Thank you very much Krystyna! |
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