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General Discussion ( English, German, French, Russian .. inne ) - Mieczysław Wolski (1892)

Wolski_M92 - 07-12-2018 - 19:54
Temat postu: Mieczysław Wolski (1892)

Hallo, I'm searching for my great grand father Mieczysław Wolski and his ancestors. But I can't find him in the church books which are online here: http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryki.ph ... &wo=SK

These are the details that I know about him:

Name: Mieczysław Wolski
born: 13.08.1892 in Kielce
died: 28.10.1937 in Tiraspol (Moldova)
his father: Romuald Wolski

He lived in Russia/Ukraine. In the town of Kotovsk he lived from the mid 1920s to the 1930s. I don't know when he moved from Poland to Russia. In 1937 he was arrested during the political repression and has been executed. He is also listed as a victim of political repression on this site: http://lists.memo.ru/index3.htm (Вольский Мечеслав Ромуальдович).

As I said, I searched the church books. But why can't I find him there although I have an exact birth date (from an official document). Can someone please help?

I also searched for Romuald Wolksi and found this:
http://geneteka.genealodzy.pl/index.php ... _date=1900

Could the one born in 1867 be the father of Mieczysław Wolski? I don't know. There is no source mentioned, no scan.

Pobłocka_Elżbieta - 07-12-2018 - 21:43
Temat postu:

Bez scanu Aktu urodzenia Mieczysława Wolskiego ,nie można jednoznacznie powiedzieć ,ze są to rodzice.
Akta stanu cywilnego Katedralnej Parafii Rzymskokatolickiej w Kielcach

https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/21/86/0/-/s ... bJednostki

https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/21#tabInformacje

http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/pradzi ... rch=szukaj

Kielce-po zalogowaniu, zajrzyj też na Facebook
http://metryki.genbaza.pl/

Akt urodzenia Chęciny ,25.04.1867r.scan 97 (013)
rodzice:
Romuald Stanisław Wolski urodzony 19.04.1867r, Zgórsko
Bolesław Wolski lat 23,Maria z Otkiewiczow lat 22
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... TQ0ZmQ1YTA

Ślub 07 lipca 1866 r.scan 50 (061),Chęciny
Wolski Daniel Boleslaw ,kawaler, lat 23,urodz.w Czarnowie parafi kieleckiej oj.Gustaw Wolski,m.Maryanna Mieszkowska,dzierżawcy we wsi Żarnowie zamieszkałych
Marya Otkiewicz lat 20 ,panna,urodzona w Drozgowie gub.lubelskiej
córka dziedzica dóbr Zgórsko Romualda Otkiewicza,Anna Nałkowska
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... jZkZDNmODU

Ślub rodziców 1837 rok
Otkiewicz Romuald, Natkowska Anna
Pawłów, scan 57,1837rok
Krzywa Wola, dnia: 15-11-1837, On- O: Kazimierz, M: Krystyna , Ona- O: Michał, M: Zuzanna
Scan 57
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1893/0/2 ... rvisxIldFA

Arek_Bereza - 07-12-2018 - 21:44
Temat postu: Mieczysław Wolski (1892)

Mieczysław Wolski was born in Korytnica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korytnica ... B3w_County
here is the act http://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,95282,10
you have to log in to see it
son of Romuald Stanisław and Kazimiera Józefa Egerska

Sroczyński_Włodzimierz - 07-12-2018 - 22:33
Temat postu:

[quote="Pobłocka_Elżbieta"]Bez scanu Aktu urodzenia Mieczysława Wolskiego ,nie można jednoznacznie powiedzieć ,ze są to rodzice.

Akt urodzenia Chęciny ,25.04.1867r.
rodzice:
Romuald Stanisław Wolski urodzony 19.04.1867r, Zgórsko
Bolesław Wolski lat 23,Maria z Otkiewiczow lat 22
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... 93-100.jpg

Ślub 07 lipca 1866 r.
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... 47-050.jpg

Wolski Daniel Boleslaw ,kawaler, lat 23,urodz.w Czarnowie parafi kieleckiej oj.Gustaw Wolski,m.Maryanna Mieszkowska,dzierżawcy we wsi Żarnowie zamieszkałych
Marya Otkiewicz lat 20 ,panna,urodzona w Drozgowie gub.lubelskiej
córka dziedzica dóbr Zgórsko Romualda Otkiewicza,Anna Nałkowska

Arek_Bereza - 07-12-2018 - 23:11
Temat postu:

Romuald and Kazimiera lived in Warsaw in 1924 where their daughter was married.
Their first child i found in Korytnica 1891. Romuald was 23 so he propably married Kazimiera 1888-90.
And Yes, i think he was broń in 1867 in Chęciny
Włodku, Elu Mieczysław urodził się w Korytnicy. Link powyżej. Data dzienna zgodna

Wolski_M92 - 08-12-2018 - 00:57
Temat postu:

Thank you all for your information. Although it's difficult to understand everything with the crappy google translator. (I would be happy if you could answer in English, German or Russian when possible.)

Until now I was not able to register at genpol.com (I'm not getting past the second step), so I cannot see http://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,95282,10 . Is there another way to see it?

Is Mieczysław Wolski in Korytnica born on 13.08.1892, or is it another date?
If it's the same date then I think it could be him.

The information about Romuald Wolski and his parents is intersting if he's my relative. But I'm not sure yet.

There is another information I can give you. Somehow a Wojciechowski family has a connection to my Wolski relatives. I don't know what connection it is - either they are friends or relatives. Do you see a Wojciechowski in one of the scans?

Edit:
I was now able to register at genpol.com and I read the page in the book. Yes the birth date is the same 13.08./25.08.1892. The name of the child Mieczysław is right and the name of the father is Romuald and it's not far away of Kielce. I didn't know that Mieczysław's second name was Tadeusz. But that's really interesting because Mieczysław gave his first son the name Tadeusz and his second son the name Romuald. I'm quite sure now that this is him. Very Happy

What do you think?

Krystyna.waw - 08-12-2018 - 14:47
Temat postu:

Wolski_M92 napisał:

I was not able to register at genpol.com (I'm not getting past the second step), so I cannot see http://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,95282,10 . Is there another way to see it?

No.
But as an exception Wink

https://zapodaj.net/d014cba140eda.jpg.html

Wolski_M92 - 08-12-2018 - 15:53
Temat postu:

Thank you Krystyna. Yesterday at night I finally registered at that page and now I'm searching in those books for more traces of my polish ancestors. I'm quite confident now, that all the above mentioned people are my relatives. There are some more questions that I have and I hope to get some more help.

Here is my first question:

As I said before, the Wojciechowski family is somehow connected to the Wolski family. In the following scan (no. 97) a person called Antonie Wojciechowski is mentioned, you can also see his subscription on that document:
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... 93-100.jpg

Would you please translate to me what is written there about him (starts at line 5)?

Second question:

I found the death of Romuald Otkiewicz, who died in 1867:
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... YjVkZDY1Yw

Is this Romuald Otkiewicz, father of Mar(y)ia Otkiewicz and son of Kazimierz and Krystyna? What was the date of death and his age? Is Stanislaw Otkiewicz his brother?

Krystyna.waw - 08-12-2018 - 18:18
Temat postu:

1. Birth certificate 25.04. 1867
witness: Antoni Wojciechowski 22 yrs, flunkey. Nothing more

2. Act 56
Stanisław Otkiewicz - brother, 61 yrs
second person is his nephew - Daniel xxxx..? - I can,t decipher - 40 yrs
Romuald died 16.03.1867, 68 yrs laird, born in... - I can,t decipher -
parents: Kazimierz i Krystyna

Wolski_M92 - 08-12-2018 - 19:54
Temat postu:

Thank you very much Krystyna!

There is also a death certificate of Stanisław Otkiewicz from 1868 which you can find here: http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... DlkNTIyMmY

There you can see the name of Daniel, it's "Łuchi" I think. Must be 41 years, right? You said the age of Stanisław Otkiewicz on the other document was 61 (isn't it 65?). On this document (one year later) it reads like 76. Or is it 66? Is it a fault of the writer? It should be the same person I think/hope. What is the exact death date of Stanisław?

And then there is (on both documents) the place of birth that we can't really decipher, especially the first part: "Danidgród(ku) Gubernii Minskiy Powiecie Pinskim". I couldn't find a place called Danidgród but it must be in the area of Pinsk (today Belorussia). Do you have an idea what village/town it is?

EwaMolly - 08-12-2018 - 21:43
Temat postu:

Daniel Łucki, 41 years, nephew
Stanisław, 76 years, born in Danigródku, Gubernii Minskiej, Powiecie Pinskim.
The exact date of death was in 06.02.1868.

This Danigródek should be somewhere in Pińsk Uyezd. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinsky_Uyezd
Here https://www.radzima.net/pl/uezd/pinskiy.html you can find some villages that were in pińsk uyezd.

Arek_Bereza - 08-12-2018 - 23:13
Temat postu:

https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... %20Library
its Dawidgródek propably

Wolski_M92 - 09-12-2018 - 01:00
Temat postu:

Thank you both! Yes I think it's Dawidgródek. Unfortunately the metrics at familysearch start in 1849. For me the 18th century and beginning of the 19th century would be interesting.

What do you think about the differences of the documented age of Stanisław Otkiewicz? Are the 76 years a fault (should be 66) or are there two Stanisław Otkiewicz with a different age?

In 1865 [no. 116] his age is 63:
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... MGJmYzAwZA

In 1866 [no. 50] his age is 64:
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... 47-050.jpg

In 1867 [no. 97] his age is 65:
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... 93-100.jpg

[no. 56]
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... YjVkZDY1Yw

Finally 1868 [no. 28] (his own death) he is "76":
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... ZDcwODVkOQ

A fault?

EwaMolly - 09-12-2018 - 10:17
Temat postu:

no. 56 is 68 years.
His nephew or writer of the document made a mistake, that's common in death certificates.

Earlier documents should be here https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... %20Library

Wolski_M92 - 09-12-2018 - 13:34
Temat postu:

Thank you for the link. Yes, I also think that the last document has a mistake. Good to know that it's common. In no.56 Romuald Otkiewicz, who died, is 68 years old. His brother Stanisław (line 2-3) is 65.

Another interesting fact:

There is another Stanisław Otkiewicz who also died around February 6th/7th 1868 and who also lived in Zgorsko but died in Piekoszów. The witnesses are others. His age was only 52:

[picture 47, no. 15]
http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... jJlNTc2OWY

So both died at practically the same time, are citizens of the same village, have the same name but died at different places and had different witnesses. Very strange. What do you think about it?

Wolski_M92 - 12-12-2018 - 17:21
Temat postu:

I have a new question:

I found a church record in the Kielce Katedra from 1843 where my ancestor is called "Wielmożny Gustaw Wolski" (416, line 2): http://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,95840,57
Does it mean he was an aristocrat? I didn't see this "title" with other people yet.

Krystyna.waw - 13-12-2018 - 17:00
Temat postu:

Wielmożny is the courtesy title.
It doesn't mean Wolski was a noble man.

Sroczyński_Włodzimierz - 13-12-2018 - 17:04
Temat postu:

no, it is not only courtesy
99,9% that's real title:) in this and others case

Wolski_M92 - 13-12-2018 - 17:17
Temat postu:

Yes, I also think so, that it's not only a courtesy title (maybe today?). If it was only a courtesy title, there should be much more people with this title in the books but I rarely see it. On another page I saw a big "W" infront of his name (and his companions) - is it an abbreviation for "Wielmożny"? e.g. here (461): http://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,95806,50

As you can see most people were not addressed this way.

If it's not only a courtesy title. What kind of people usually were addressed that way?

Krystyna.waw - 13-12-2018 - 17:31
Temat postu:

Here you will find some explanation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlachta

Wolski_M92 - 13-12-2018 - 18:02
Temat postu:

Thank you, interesting article. So you think it was a Szlachcic? I saw a difference in time and place - I mean later in the 1860s and outside of Kielce (e.g. in Checiny) I didn't see this "Wielmożny" or "W" again. Did they lose their title or was it not common to adress people this way in later times or in small villages?

Also I saw several times the abbreviation "JP." infront of ones name, e.g. "JP. Ferdinand Hahn", see the above posted link. What does this mean?

Edit:
I found an explanation for "JP" here: https://genealogia.okiem.pl/wl_kr_1790_n.htm

JP means JEGOMOŚĆ PAN or JAŚNIE PAN (JP). And "W" stands for "Wielmożny" as I already thought. Is there a ranking for those titles? Is JWP the same as "W". Is JP a higher rank as W?

Edit 2:
Here is another site that explains the ranking a bit:
http://kaminscy.pl/index.php/genealogia/hierarchia/

So a wielmożny in the 19th century was a szlachcic (sub-group "posesjonat"). What does "posesjonat" mean? And what does "właściciel przynaj-mniej jednej wsi" mean?

Krystyna.waw - 14-12-2018 - 14:32
Temat postu:

Polish nobility, law, rules, ranks, changes in time at territory etc. are too difficult for me, even in Polish language ;(

posesjonat - old word for owner of land or the property (real estate) in the town.
właściciel przynajmniej jednej wsi - the owner of at least one village, he owes one village or more.

Wolski_M92 - 14-12-2018 - 15:56
Temat postu:

Thank you for the explanation. I often read "Dzierzawca" behind Wolskis name. Could you translate this to me? "... Wolski Dzierzawca Dobr w Czarnowie zamieszkaly". Does it mean that he owned land in Czarnow? Or did he lease land from someone else for himself? Or a totally different meaning? (no. 15: http://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,95546,4)

Krystyna.waw - 14-12-2018 - 18:27
Temat postu:

dzierżawca = lease-holder, tenat living (resident) in Czarnów village
You can check here Smile

https://pl.bab.la/slownik/polski-angiel ... %C5%BCawca

Wolski_M92 - 14-12-2018 - 18:39
Temat postu:

Ok, and "Dobr" is what? Is it land with buildings on it for agricultural work?

Krystyna.waw - 14-12-2018 - 19:09
Temat postu:

Genitive case from word dobra
Dobra = demesne

A little bit of time and you will be fluent in Polish Wink

Wolski_M92 - 14-12-2018 - 19:55
Temat postu:

Thank you very much for your Polish lessons. I wouldn't mind being fluent in Polish so I could easier read and understand the metrics. But I'm afraid that won't happen. I'm already happy to understand and to decipher the most important facts. Smile

Another question:

In the following metrics it is written that Marya Otkiewicz is born in Drozgów (Gubernia Lubelski) (no. 50, line 10-11): http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... 47-050.jpg

But I can't find such a village on the map. Do you know where this village is and to what church the people of that village went? I can only find a village called Drożdżów but that is not the same village, isn't it?

Edit:
Is it maybe Drążgów ? It's in the Lubelski region.

Sroczyński_Włodzimierz - 14-12-2018 - 21:23
Temat postu:

as I wrote in PM: you should contact the person via e-mail, he will answer to these and many other questions (inc. how to contact with relatives)

Wolski_M92 - 15-12-2018 - 13:17
Temat postu:

Thank you for the recommendation, I will contact him later. But nevertheless I would also like to ask my questions here. So has anyone an idea where the village "Drozgów" (Gubernia Lubelski) is and if it's actually "Drążgów"?

Arek_Bereza - 15-12-2018 - 13:49
Temat postu:

This Drzozgów is a mistake propably ?
In my opinion Your Maria was born in Siostrzytów (parochia Biskupice) https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1647/0/2 ... RsClmKt2hQ
here is the act of marriege of her parents http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1893/ ... rvisxIldFA (but you propably know about that)
use lubgens site and remember that Otkiewicz could be also written as Olkiewicz

Wolski_M92 - 15-12-2018 - 15:02
Temat postu:

Thank you for the links. I think Romuald Otkiewicz could be the right person, also his age is correct.

The name of mother Anna Nałkowska is right but the information about her age differs. In the act of marriage in 1837 (that I also knew about) she is told to be 21. So she should be born around 1816. In 1841 at the birth of Maria Franciszka Katarzyna (see the link you gave to me), her mother is again only 21 years old. How is that possible?

And Marya Otkiewicz, the daughter of Romuald and Anna, should be born around 1845, because at her marriage with her husband Boleslaw Wolski in 1866 she was 20 (no. 50: http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/pliki/ ... -050.jpg). As Marya died in May 1867 she was 21 years old (no. 90 http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... Q0NTViNQ).

So I think Maria Franciszka Katarzyna (born 1841), that you found, could be Marya's older sister. But I don't think it's "my" Marya. In every document they say that she was born in Drozgow. And it's still strange why Anna was always 21.

Edit:
Now I see that even the age of Romuald differs a lot. 1837 at the marriage with Anna he is 38. At the birth of his daughter Maria Franciszka Katarzyna in 1841 he is 41. So far so good - so he must be born around 1799/1800. But then his son Eugeniusz is born two years later in 1843 and there Romuald is told to be 33 but should be 43! (see 188: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1647/0/2 ... 4j6UahWQw) That must be a mistake in 1843, because in 1867, as he died, he was 68. So must be born around 1799/1800. Or the Romuald Otkiewicz in 1843 is another person.

Krystyna.waw - 15-12-2018 - 15:53
Temat postu:

Drozgów (Gubernia Lubelska)
1. All Lublin villages, even smallest you wil find on lubgens - lub(lin)+gen(ealogy)
site http://pomoce.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php?page_id=5
The most similiar name is Drozdówka but maybe your idea will be smarter.

2. All villages, even tiniest in Polish Kingdom - Drozżyno for example - check in this dictionary
http://dir.icm.edu.pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_II/163

Name Otkiewicz is not popular so maybe all Otkiewiczs' are related kins.
They are present in Lublin region. Search engine:
http://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php?page_id=766

Good luck!

Wolski_M92 - 15-12-2018 - 16:37
Temat postu:

Thank you Krystyna. I will check it.

The Otkiewicz's are originally coming from Dawidgródek (Pinsk Powiat) - at least Romuald and his brother Stanisław and their parents of course (Kazimierz Otkiewicz, Krystyna Czerwińska). So maybe that's an explanation why the name Otkiewicz is not popular. The Otkiewiczs' are driving me a little bit crazy ... I see that there is another couple with very similar/identical names: Raymond Otkiewicz and his wife Anna Nałkowska! Rolling Eyes

Raymond and Anna are quite in the same age like Romuald and Anna. I could think, ok Raymond is Romuald and Anna is in both cases the same person. But who would call himself occasionally with different names? What do you think about these two couples? http://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php?page_id=766

Krystyna.waw - 15-12-2018 - 17:57
Temat postu:

From lubgens:
M 1837 Romuald - bachelor, ex-army officer (mate)
B 1839 Kajetan in Pawłów - his father Rajmund
B 1840 Rajmund in Biskupice - his father Romuald is lease-holder of the Siostrzytów
B 1843 Eugeniusz in Biskupice -his father Romuald
Their mother is always the same, so Smile

))

Rajmund and Romuald are both of German origin, seemed strange and alien for old Poles, I suppose.
My grant...mother was baptised as Angella (not popular). After that she always was Aniela (Polish ordinary name).

In Lubgens every parish - left Abramowice, Abramów, etc. - has on right side "Nazwiska w parafii" means "names in this parish"
http://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php ... &par=7

She was indexed as Olkiewicz:
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1647/0/2 ... RsClmKt2hQ
Check other Olkiewiczs'

Wolski_M92 - 15-12-2018 - 22:16
Temat postu:

So maybe Romuald and Rajmund/Raymond shared a wife, why not.. if she was hot. Wink

No, I still don't know what to think, it's all so weird.

I just discovered another thing: There is a famous Polish geographer called Wacław Nałkowski (https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wac%C5%82aw_Na%C5%82kowski). His father Michał Dionizy Jan Nałkowski (1820-1871) was a son of Michał Nałkowski and Zuzanna Hubryków (or Ubryków or Ubryk). And now comes a possible connection to my family tree: Anna Nałkowska (the wife of Romuald/Raymond Otkiewicz) was a daughter of Michał Nałkowski and Zuzanna. The problem is, I don't know the maiden name of Zuzanna, because it's not mentioned in the act of marriage between Anna and Romuald (no. 57: http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1893/0/2.4/40/skan/full/TDq-ZPkV34DdrvisxIldFA) . Further I don't know if Michał Dionizy Jan had a sister. Does anyone know it? Here is a long article about Wacław Nałkowski and his family: http://dawny.pl/waclaw-nalkowski/ . I see there another possible connection to Anna (see footnote no. 12): Michał Nałkowski died quite early and his wife Zuzanna married a second time, then moved from Lublin to Siestrzewitów (today: Siostrzytów) and lived there with his new husband Jan Hryniewicz and son Michał Dionizy Jan. No more children are mentioned. But Anna got at least one or more children in that village and her husband Romuald was lease-holder there. Only a coincidence?

Would you also please tell me where Anna lived until her marriage with Romuald? Can you see it in the act of marriage (link above)?

EwaMolly - 16-12-2018 - 14:08
Temat postu:

She was born in Lublin, lived in Krzywa Wola.

Wolski_M92 - 16-12-2018 - 17:37
Temat postu:

Thank you. That's quite an important information. I thought she was born in Krzywowola. Now that I know that she was born in Lublin it makes even more sense to believe that Michał Dionizy Jan Nałkowski and Jan Kajetan Nałkowski, who were also born in Lublin, are her brothers.

As I wrote yesterday, I suspected that Zuzanna Hubryków is Anna's mother. I now strongly believe that, because Zuzanna's second husband Jan Hryniewicz is mentioned in two documents from 1838 and 1839 at the death of Jan Otkiewicz (possibly a brother of Romuald/Raymond) and at the death of Anna's son Kaietan Otkiewicz. After 1839 Jan Hryniewicz is not mentioned any more. That's logical because he died in 1840. Would be nice if anyone could find his death metrics so that I could read if Romuald/Raymond is a witness. After 1840 I discovered a Zuzanna Hryniewicz in two documents (at the birth of Anna's and Romuald's daughter Maria Franciszka Katarzyna and birth of son Eugeniusz Leopold). That is Zuzanna Hubryków as a widow with her new name of her deceised second husband. Why should Zuzanna Hubryków (Nałkowska/Hryniewicz) be a witness/godmother of two children of Anna and Romuald if she hadn't something to do with them? I think it's quite clear that she must be her mother. What do you think?

What I now need to find is a birth record of Anna Nałkowska in Lublin (born between 1815 and 1821). I didn't find it yet. Does anyone have a link? Also a death record of Anna as Anna Otkiewicz is needed. She was living at last in Zgórsko (near Checiny). In 1867 she was still alive I think.

Concerning Romuald Otkiewicz I suspect that he had a second name Raymond or Raymund. Maybe that's an explanation why there is a Romuald and sometimes a Raymond/Raymund Otkiewicz in the documents. One of Romuald's sons is named "Raymund Gorgoniusz Adryan" - so he may have chosen the name "Raymund" after his own second name. Since 1840 I didn't see a Raymond Otkiwicz anymore only Romuald. Raymond appeared only in the years 1838/39. To be 100% sure that he's one person named Romuald Raymund Otkiewicz (born around 1799/1800), I need a birth record, that should be in Dawidgrodek. But I have no source where I can look for it. It should be a catholic church. Can anyone find it?

Confused

Edit:
I found the act of wedding (1826 in Lublin) between Zuzanna Hubryków and Jan Hryniewicz here (no. 22): https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1859/0/2 ... Mmjp5BeMLA

Is the name Hubryków right? Or should it be Hubryk?

EwaMolly - 16-12-2018 - 20:02
Temat postu:

no. 22
Marriage between Jan Hryniewicz, lieutenant of Ułan division, 39 years and Zuzanna Franciszka Hubryk Nałkowska (not sure which surname is her maiden one), for two years or more she is a widow, doughter of Ludwik and Barbara Hubryk.

The surname is Hubryk.

It looks like Zuzanna is, in fact, her mother or at least someone close to the family.

Edit: She also sign herself as Zuzanna Hubryk Hryniewicz in the act.

Wolski_M92 - 16-12-2018 - 20:13
Temat postu:

Thank you for the translation. If her maiden surname if "Hubryk", why does she subscribe with "z Hubrików"? Is it a grammatic rule to add an "ów" to the name?

Arek_Bereza - 16-12-2018 - 20:39
Temat postu:

yes, it is a declension
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Polish_nouns

Wolski_M92 - 16-12-2018 - 20:56
Temat postu:

Thank you. Is "Hubryk" a Polish surname? It sounds strange to me?

In the document is also mentioned Zuzanna's place of birth. I read there "Koninsko-wola" and didn't find such a place on the map. The most similar name is "Końskowola" and it's near Lublin. Do you think it's the right village?

Arek_Bereza - 16-12-2018 - 21:09
Temat postu:

Yes it is Końskowola
what does it mean polish surname for you? Does my surname is polish for you or not Smile

Look at lubgens - Hubryks lived in Końskowola in XVIII century. What does it mean ? It means only that they lived there at this time. Hubryks lived also close to Płock - use geneteka you will find them also in Ukraine, but in 1701 Ukraine didn`t exist Smile

So is it a polish, ukrainian, russian surname ? Smile

Wolski_M92 - 16-12-2018 - 22:36
Temat postu:

Very interesting, thank you for the information. I will go on investigating all these Hubryks. I found the name on Czech websites. So I thought maybe it could be Czech. Who knows where they came from in the centuries before 1701.

If your surname is Bereza, than I would say it doesn't sound typically Polish for me. It sounds more Russian, like берёза. But I'm not an expert of Polish names, of course. Wink

By the way. I'm also doeing research on other branches of my family tree. Another surname is Budziarek. It sounds Polish to me, but there are extremely few people with that name in Poland. I suspect that the original name was changed - they were Germans living in Poland. Do you think the name Budziarek is of Polish origin?

Arek_Bereza - 16-12-2018 - 22:42
Temat postu:

Budziarek? extremely few people ? come on, use geneteka Smile

Wolski_M92 - 16-12-2018 - 22:55
Temat postu:

Ok, you're right, there are much more Budziareks than I thought. But I didn't see so many Budziareks outside that database. So it must be a Polish name. They were Germans in Poland, why did they have a Polish name? But for that Budziarek family I will make a seperate thread later. I don't want to mix it with the Wolski thread.

Wolski_M92 - 17-12-2018 - 19:06
Temat postu:

Could someone please tell me something about Michał Nałkowski (Naukowski) and Zuzanna Hubryk from these two documents?

02.09.1810 (no. 2): wedding between Michał and Zuzanna
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1858/0/1/2/skan/full/7s85QBJf_PlVRoC0YyPhSQ

13.11.1823 (no. 566): death of Michał Nałkowski
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1858/0/1/42/skan/full/a8cMuqn4eoVZnaRI2XI8LQ

Where did they work, where did they live - the address (including parents)? Where was Michał born and where did he die? I think there are quite a lot of informations there that I don't understand.

Arek_Bereza - 18-12-2018 - 10:31
Temat postu:

Act of marriage
13.09.1810
Michał Naukowski, age 26, bachelor, confectioner/pastry cook, accordin the metrics of parochia Olszyny village Sukmanie son of Józef and Jadwiga Sikorzak (they were probably alive), Michał lived in Lublin nr 69
Zuzanna Franciszka Hubry, born Końskowola age 16, daughter of Ludwik and Barbara (no surname), lived in Lublin nr 52, mother alive, father died.
Witnesses: Jakub Abramowicz age 49, address: Lublin nr 126, Tadeusz Klementy merchant from Lublin age 29, Lublin nr 47, Walenty Moraczewski salt store writer age 54, Lublin nr 50, Jan Piotrowicz age 29, Lublin nr 50 salt store controller.
Act of death
13.11.1823 Lublin
Witnesses Mikołaj Bojarski age 45 (lived Lublin nr 199), Józef Weber age 35, sacristan, (Lublin nr 110)
13.11 Michał Naukowski died, age 40, confectionery/ bakery owner, wife Zuzanna Hubryk, one son one daughter
One more information from lubgens indexes:
1826 Zuzanna married Jan Hryniewicz in Lublin

Wolski_M92 - 18-12-2018 - 18:31
Temat postu:

Thank you for the translation. Very interesting! Did the streets in Lublin have no names? Only numbers, like in villages? The information that Michał had only one son and a daughter is strange. I know that he had more children with Zuzanna. So if that's true, most of them must have died until 1823.

These are their children that I found:

1. Magdalena Anna Nałkowska (born: 22.07.1814 in Lublin, died: 02.11.1873 in Kielce) - that's my Anna that I was looking for I suppose
no 187: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1858/0/1/13/skan/full/hH0BSniIs4xbhbpOvVSiHw

2. Zuzanna Maryanna Nałkowska (born: 22.08.1816 in Lublin, died: 27.06.1823 in Lublin)
birth no 194: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1858/0/1/19/skan/full/hH0BSniIs4xbhbpOvVSiHw
death no 368: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1858/0/1/42/skan/full/CT-QCIkfKNwWoPOzEBa5uw

3. Maryanna Nałkowska (born: 15.08.1818 in Lublin, died: unknown)
birth no 236: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1858/0/1/25/skan/full/IZzqVClVL3Kh95UyuukXow

4. Jan Kajetan Nałkowski (born: 1819 in Lublin, died: unknown)
birth no 302: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1858/0/1/28/skan/full/H5RhqnrnhCsfsI2I_WcoFQ

5. Michał Dionizy Jan Nałkowski (born ~1820 in Lublin, died: 1871 in Lublin)
death no 419: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1859/0/2.4/54/skan/full/Nw7ThSwpDmOrdPogFQvpDA
I didn't find a birth record for him, he is also not in the index at lubgens. But I know that he was a son of them from this site: http://dawny.pl/waclaw-nalkowski/

So if it's true that 1823 there was only 1 son and 1 daugher, all children but no. 1 and 5 must have died. Can someone find their death records and the birth record of Michał Dionizy Jan Nałkowski?

EwaMolly - 18-12-2018 - 20:10
Temat postu:

If they die before 1823, it should be pretty easy for you to find them. Of course if they were in Lublin in that time.
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/search?q=XD ... 20XARCH:35

Arek_Bereza - 19-12-2018 - 10:00
Temat postu:

You missed one Smile

Jan Ignacy (index for Jan Ignacy Natkowski) - born 1812 Lublin Kolegiata
Marianna died 1819 Lublin Kolegiata
And one more, parents of Zuzanna Hubryk were Ludwik and Barbara Kicińska or Kuczyńska
use surname UBRYK (sic) to search at lubgens Smile

Wolski_M92 - 19-12-2018 - 17:14
Temat postu:

Thank you. Now I still need to find the birth record of Michał Dionizy Jan Nałkowski. Is the index of Lublin Kolegiata and other churches of Lublin at lubgens complete? Because I don't find him there. If it's complete it makes no sense for me to search the scans.

Krystyna.waw - 19-12-2018 - 19:42
Temat postu:

Wolski_M92 napisał:

Is the index of Lublin Kolegiata and other churches of Lublin at lubgens complete?

All indexed records you can see here
Lublin Kolegiata
http://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php ... mp;par=131
Others from Lublin in left menu
And ask on Lublin forum - they know much more then is in indexes Wink

Wolski_M92 - 19-12-2018 - 20:20
Temat postu:

Yes, that's a good idea to ask there about the Lublin region. I will do that.
If anyone knows links to sites where I can read scans of books from Końskowola from the 1790s and earlier, please tell me (didn't find it in szukajwarchiwach.pl).

Krystyna.waw - 19-12-2018 - 20:32
Temat postu:

Have you seen it?
http://regestry.lubgens.eu/viewpage.php ... amp;par=79

Wolski_M92 - 19-12-2018 - 20:49
Temat postu:

Yes Krystyna, I've seen that page, but there are some informations missing, like the profession or sometimes the exact dates are missing. Or I don't understand some abbreviations yet, eg. the entry for Zuzanna Franciszka Hubryk (1794):

Miasto, 11 mar, O: Ludwik, M: Barbara, O chrz.: MD Joachim, M chrz: Zuzanna Hempel.

I know that O is father and M mother, "O/M chr" are the godparents. What means "11 mar" March 11th? Is it the birth date or baptism date? What means "Miasta"? Place? What does it mean in that context. And what means "MD"?

Or for Łukasz Hubryk (1798):

Końskowola 155, dn: 17 paź; ks: Tab.I s.12; rodz: Ludwik i Barbara Kicińska; chrz:.

What mean the red colored?

Krystyna.waw - 20-12-2018 - 17:03
Temat postu:

ask in the source - lubgens forum

Wolski_M92 - 21-12-2018 - 17:25
Temat postu:

Would somone please tell me when and where Aniela (Angiela/Angela) was born and when and where baptised?
birth record no. 81: https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/357/0/-/31/skan/full/7AUijAJYwvt6MSYUeWmy1Q
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/357/0/-/31/skan/full/OsroS4EZFRpONHzsz4jmOw

I'm reading the following dates but don't know what is what: 07.11. and 02.11.1819.

In her marriage act I read another birth place if I'm not wrong (no. 15):

https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1647/0/2.21/62/skan/full/yD_N2CH4hl_7FF3PNvsoAg
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1647/0/2.21/62/skan/full/qXhROK2lSnsXNqQlYqjaFQ

And would someone please also tell me the dates and places of birth and baptism of Teofil Jan Hubryk?

https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/357/0/-/31/skan/full/Osqm06d8406BhU-8i1qknA
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/357/0/-/31/skan/full/tHLI3W_JbfOP22zKJ7-JMQ

Thanks in advance!

Krystyna.waw - 21-12-2018 - 17:38
Temat postu:

Miasto Płock in 81 B and 15 M act.
dates 07.11. and 02.11.1819 are correct.
You ask what was first - birth or babtisation? Smile

Teofil Jan B 26.12 and B 20.12. Płock house/building no 277 (probably)

Wolski_M92 - 21-12-2018 - 17:46
Temat postu:

Thank you. Laughing

No I thought maybe one of the dates has another meaning. I read in the act of marriage that Aniela was born in Siostrzytów/Siestrzewitów. Am I wrong?

Here is another (no. 54):

Józef Paweł Hubryk

https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/357/0/-/45/skan/full/dj_F3eF6JFDmw4q8LfIBNA

I have the dates 22.03. and 25.03.1824, right? Baptism in Płock? And I read Warszawa. Is that the birth place of Józef Paweł?

Wolski_M92 - 22-12-2018 - 17:46
Temat postu:

Another question:

Please read this (no. 2): https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1858/0/1/2/skan/full/7s85QBJf_PlVRoC0YyPhSQ

Am I understanding it right, that Jozef Naukowski (father of Michal Nalkowski) is living in the village Sukmanie near Olszyny? Or is he born there?

Krystyna.waw - 22-12-2018 - 19:06
Temat postu:

Wolski_M92 napisał:

I read in the act of marriage that Aniela was born in Siostrzytów/Siestrzewitów. Am I wrong?

7.XI https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/357/0/-/ ... MSYUeWmy1Q
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/357/0/-/ ... NHzsz4jmOw
The data is the same: Angiela was born in his house no 9 in Stary Rynek in Płock

Marriage act
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1647/0/2 ... NqQlYqjaFQ
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1647/0/2 ... FF3PNvsoAg
Angela born in Płock, living in Sies..
There is something written in the margin but not for my eyes

54 Józef Paweł Hubryk
Father 27 lat, cukiernik (?) living in Płock, mother 19 yrs
Child born 22.05, bapt 25.03
3 wit. = gardener and 2 high ranks in Criminal Court - probably

2. Father Naukowski (today probably Nałkowski) living in Sukmanie.
Nothing about the birth place.

Wolski_M92 - 22-12-2018 - 19:39
Temat postu:

Thank you Krystyna. I already started looking for a birth record for Michał Nałkowski in Lublin around 1783-85 but now I think he is maybe not born in Lublin, because his father was living in Sukmanie (near Olszyny). Sukmanie is quite far away of Lublin, so I think I should search there.

Arek_Bereza - 23-12-2018 - 09:41
Temat postu:

Why did you search Michał Naukowski birth record in Lublin? Look at my translation of his marriage above. He was born in Sukmanie parochia Olszyny. It's not very far. Believe me.

Wolski_M92 - 23-12-2018 - 12:31
Temat postu:

That's a good question, Arek. There are already so many facts that I just forgot about it. Or maybe I didn't understand that "according the metrics of parochia Olszyny village Sukmanie" means he was born there. Now I understand. Confused

What means not very far for you? Today according to google you need to travel 3,5 hours by car from Lublin to Sukmanie. In those times that would be a day I think. Or is there another Sukmanie and Olszyny that is closer to Lublin?

There is another question I have concerning Wacław Piotr Ludwik Nałkowski. You remember this famous person: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wac%C5%82aw_Na%C5%82kowski (wikipedia doesn't mention his third name Ludwik). Here is another website that mentions his third name: https://www.ogrodywspomnien.pl/index/showd/93581

It's known that he was born on 19.11.1851 in Nowodwór. At lubgens you can find him also with this birth date and place. But there is another record in 1865 in Lublin here (no. 172): https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1859/0/2.4/48/skan/full/a2i-Ok6GjJqdeljGrlRrOQ
First I thought that there is another son of the same parents with the same name. But then I read in that record the exact birth date and place of the person born in 1851. Why? What is that record from 1865 about? Was it only the baptism of Wacław Piotr Ludwik Nałkowski who was born in 1851?

Krystyna.waw - 23-12-2018 - 14:10
Temat postu:

Wolski_M92 napisał:

What is that record from 1865 about? Was it only the baptism of Wacław Piotr Ludwik Nałkowski who was born in 1851?

Yes

Wolski_M92 - 23-12-2018 - 14:39
Temat postu:

Very good. So one problem less. I wonder why he was baptised a second time.

Wolski_M92 - 26-12-2018 - 18:08
Temat postu:

Has anyone a link to birth records of Kielce Katedra around 1800 (ca. 1797-1809)? I can only find birth records starting 1810 or until 1765.

Or if you have access to sources that are not in the internet: Can anyone tell me when Gustaw Grzegorz Wojciech Wolski was born? I suppose that it must be around 1801. And does anyone know the birth date and place of his wife Barbara Maryanna Kunegunda Mieszkowska? I suppose that her birth date is around 1807. They lived in Czarnów near Kielce at the beginning of the 19th century.

Edit:

I found a marriage record of Gustaw Wolski and Maryanna Mieszkowska here:
http://metryki.genbaza.pl/genbaza,detail,98601,46

They married in Małogoszcz in September 1827. It would be nice if someone could translate this to me, there are some important details that I don't understand.

Wolski_M92 - 28-12-2018 - 12:32
Temat postu:

I'm trying to identify the birth and living place of Gustaw Wolski in that marriage act (no. 27) (http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/index.php?cmd=image&sfpg=QVAtS2llbGNlLzE3MDlfTWHFgm9nb3N6Y3otMTgxMC0xOTI0LXRlbXAvMTgyN19VTVotMTgyN19zMjktdGVtcC8qXzA0NS5qcGcqMGZiMjFiYmVhY2RjMTY2ZjI5MDU5NTMxMmRiYWNiMTU3NzRjYzg0ZjJmN2M2OTdhNDAxZmM1YzM2NzFhZmQxMg). Can someone help?

Concerning his place of domicile I'm reading "Laigeskow". I believe that's wrong, there is no such place.

His birth place: I'm reading here "wsi Jastrzębiu powiecie i obwodzie Opoczyńskim Wojewodztwie Sandomirskim". So the village's name is Jastrzębie or Jastrzębia. Do you think that's the villages name? It must be in the Wojewodztwo Sandomir in the Powiat Opoczyński. And it's 1827 here is a map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Sandomierz_voivodship_in_1827.JPG I can't find a village with that name there.

Could it be this village? https://www.google.com/maps/place/26-12 ... 0.7396126.

The "Słownik geograficzny Królestwa Polskiego" didn't help me in this case.

Arek_Bereza - 28-12-2018 - 13:02
Temat postu:

Place of domicile - Zajączków
Birth place - for me it is Jastrzębiec parochia Kargów

Wolski_M92 - 28-12-2018 - 13:29
Temat postu:

Thank you Arek. The place of domicile is logical. Zajączków must be the right place. Concerning the birth place "Jastrzębiec" parochia Kargów I'm not sure. In the marriage act they say that the village is in Powiat Opoczyński. But "Jastrzębiec" parochia Kargów is quite far away of that powiat, isn't it?

Arek_Bereza - 28-12-2018 - 14:09
Temat postu:

You said that Słownik Geofraficzny didn`t help you so I was trying to search another way. I forgot the first rule: Trust somebody but make control Smile

Słownik is very useful - Jastrząb, page 499, powiat opoczyński, gmina Goździków par. Bieliny

Wolski_M92 - 28-12-2018 - 14:32
Temat postu:

It's very nice of you, that you didn't forget about that rule. Very Happy

So then the village Jastrząb should be this one:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/26-43 ... 20.5159485

But why do they write "Jastrzębie" is that due to a grammatic rule?

Arek_Bereza - 28-12-2018 - 14:36
Temat postu:

They write in the Jastrzębiu it`s according grammatic rules Smile

Some acts of Bieliny (Bieliny Opoczyńskie) you will find at genbaza and also some indexes at geneteka

Wolski_M92 - 28-12-2018 - 14:45
Temat postu:

Very nice, so one more problem solved. Smile

Unfortunately Gustaw Wolski was born around 1801, but the first record at genbaza starts 1810. At geneteka the results also start only at 1810. So for now I have no possibility to look further. Sad

Edit 1
If someone needs a detailed historical map of Wojewodztwo Sandomierski, I can recommend this one: http://igrek.amzp.pl/11764804

Edit 2

I have another question:

The father-in-law of Gustaw Wolski ist Severyn Mieszkowski. He was "Possessor (?) Starostwa Rudzkiego w Rudzie zamieskaly". I'm not sure if the word is really "possessor", there is a strange letter after "Po". So if the word is "possessor", what does that mean in that context?

Links:
1810 no. 19: http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/index.php?cmd=image&sfpg=QVAtS2llbGNlLzE3MDlfTWHFgm9nb3N6Y3otMTgxMC0xOTI0LXRlbXAvMTgxMF9VTVotMTgxMF9zMDEtdGVtcC8qXzAwOC5qcGcqYjA0ODMxYzE3ZWEyNzY1OTFiNzcwYjRkN2E2MzBhZGFmODViMTEzZDJjOTdlYWEzYjdjNWI4NmYzMWU4MTY4Yw

1812 no. 41 (line 5-6) http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/index.php?cmd=image&sfpg=QVAtS2llbGNlLzE3MDlfTWHFgm9nb3N6Y3otMTgxMC0xOTI0LXRlbXAvMTgxMl9VTVotMTgxMl9zMDUtdGVtcC8qXzAxMy5qcGcqZWI0MjhiZDVkNTg1MWU3YTJhM2E2NTJmYTM5ODU5MmFjMWI2M2MyZTFiMzk4NmVmNDJlZjM3YTVlYTg1N2Y5Mg

My understanding is, that Severyn Mieszkowski was the head (starosta) of the "Starostwo Rudzkie" and he lived in Ruda Zajączkowska ( https://www.google.com/maps/place/26-07 ... 20.3130341 ). Is that right? (It's very helpful to look on the historical map, that I linked above. There you can see in the legend the starostwos of Sandomierz.)

Later since 1819 the "tilte" and name of the Starostwa changes. Then there is written (in 1827) ".. Naddzierżawców Starostwa Ruda Narodowa i wsi tegoz nazwizka zamieszkałych".

Link:
1819 no. 39: http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/index.php?cmd=image&sfpg=QVAtS2llbGNlLzE3MDlfTWHFgm9nb3N6Y3otMTgxMC0xOTI0LXRlbXAvMTgxOV9VTVotMTgxOV9zMTgtdGVtcC8qXzAxNS5qcGcqMGY0YzU5MTliNDc3ZDkzZDdmZGQxZmQwOTliZjk5NTI2ZjBmOThlNTE2ZGIxNjRmNTUzY2Y1NTcwMTAzNjk3YQ

1827 no 27.: http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/index.php?cmd=image&sfpg=QVAtS2llbGNlLzE3MDlfTWHFgm9nb3N6Y3otMTgxMC0xOTI0LXRlbXAvMTgyN19VTVotMTgyN19zMjktdGVtcC8qXzA0NS5qcGcqMGZiMjFiYmVhY2RjMTY2ZjI5MDU5NTMxMmRiYWNiMTU3NzRjYzg0ZjJmN2M2OTdhNDAxZmM1YzM2NzFhZmQxMg

What has changed:
In 1810 he was "possessor (?)" and in 1827 "naddzierżawca".
Where is the difference?

In 1810 it was the "Starostwo Rudzkie" and in 1827 "Starostwo Ruda Narodowa". It should be the same place I think, but I cannot find a place named Ruda Narodowa there. Do you? What does that mean?

Shocked

Krystyna.waw - 29-12-2018 - 16:11
Temat postu:

Wolski_M92 napisał:

In 1810 he was "possessor (?)" and in 1827 "naddzierżawca".
Where is the difference?

daw. = dawniej, old
posesor
https://sjp.pwn.pl/szukaj/posesor.html
So here posesor probably in second meaning - lease-holder

Naddzierżawca - https://sjp.pwn.pl/doroszewski/naddzier ... 54180.html
When lessee has the tenant he is more important lessee Smile

Wolski_M92 - 29-12-2018 - 18:25
Temat postu:

That's still confusing me.. maybe we are still comparing the things too much with modern times, for example the meaning of the word "Dzierżawa" or "Dzierżawca" which means "lease" or "leaseholder" today. To who belongs the land he is leasing, to the king, the state? When you look on this old map from 1791 (http://igrek.amzp.pl/11764804) you can see in the legend several "Dzierżawa"s listed (on the right side of the map). At the left bottom corner of the map you can see symbols for "Starostwo Sadowe", "Starostwo" and "Dzierżawa". So it seems to be a hierarchy. In that context "Dzierżawa" means maybe more than today?

I understand that Severyn Mieszkowski was the starost of that starostwo. Could the word "posesor" mean, that the starostwo was in his hands - under his control? Am I right or completely wrong?

I would like to learn more about Polish history and also to learn more about the szlachta (because as I see now practically all of my Polish ancestors are belonging to that class). Unfortunately there is very limited access to information in the languages that I understand.

Edit:
I think I will ask my questions cerning polish history in the polish section of this forum (with google translate).

Wolski_M92 - 30-12-2018 - 13:42
Temat postu:

I have some (more) questions concerning the following marriage act between Gustaw Wolski and Maryanna Mieszkowska (no. 27): http://poczekalnia.genealodzy.pl/gal/in ... NzFhZmQxMg

1.) In line 7 there is someone they call "Kalixt" Wolski. Is that name right? What is the word after Wolksi? "Dziedzie"? What is the name of the village where he lives: "Bielewo" or "Bielewica" (the same village you can also find in the middle of the text)?

2.) In line 9-10 there is something written about "brat nizéy soymienianego". Is Kalixt Wolski Gustaw Wolski's brother?

3.) Where did Stanislaw Wolski and Barbara Ogrodzińska live? Is it Jastrząb (where Gustaw was born) or Zajączków (where Gustaw currently lived) or in "Bielewica"? Were they already dead at that time or alive?

4.) Is Szydłów the place of birth of Maryanna Mieszkowska?

5.) Is there an important information in the last third of the text?

Many thanks in advance. Smile

Krystyna.waw - 30-12-2018 - 18:10
Temat postu:

1.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalikst
Kalikst Wolski dziedzic wsi Bielewic (genetivus from Bielewice)
Gustaw is dismissed (ex) lieutenant

2. Is Kalixt Wolski Gustaw Wolski's brother? Yes

3. Parents "tamże na ów czas zamieszkałych"
tamże = therein
I understand (not for sure) that they had lived in Jastrząb.
Only his mother is alive - now her residence is in Bielewice

4. Yes

5. Who knows Wink

There is marriage act but no marriage contract (prenup)

Krzych.K - 30-12-2018 - 18:32
Temat postu:

Hi
My understanding is that Gustaw - now retired and in Zajaczkowo lives, born - Jastrzębie.
Kalikst - is the Lord and have tenants.

Hope that helps.

Wolski_M92 - 30-12-2018 - 19:32
Temat postu:

Thank you both, that helped. Smile

Does it mean that Bielewice is the property of Kalixt/Kalikst? His own village?

So now I need to find that village Bielewice in the Wojewodstwo Sandomierz. Until now I only find a village in Silesia (https://mapcarta.com/29826992), but that must be the wrong place. The Slownik didn't help me again - maybe I don't know how to use it. Maybe the name is wrong?

Edit:
I found it. Very Happy

It's Bielowice near Opoczno and also not far away of Jastrząb:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/26-30 ... 20.3610992

Edit 2:
It's the only village with a similar name that makes sense to me.

Edit 3:
Yes it's really Bielowice. I found Kalixt Wolski now in one church record in Opoczno here (no. 187): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1407440

Happy New Year to everyone!

Wolski_M92 - 01-01-2019 - 17:19
Temat postu:

Could anyone please tell me the maiden name of Bronisława, the wife of Kalixt Wolski? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1407440

Krzych.K - 01-01-2019 - 17:37
Temat postu:

Hi
Dziedzic:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dziedzic
2nd noun is for you which means Kalikst is a land owner. That`s what I meant in my previous post - a lord which owns the land and has tenants ( You not form UK I assume )

Regarding Bronia ( Bronisława ): is says - Bronisława Wolska, 29 years old, after checking that she has passed away... I don`t see her maiden name there.

Regards

Wolski_M92 - 01-01-2019 - 18:04
Temat postu:

Hi Krzych.K,

ok so he owns the land. I understand. In 1827 there is written that he is Dziedzic of that village. In 1832 and 38 it's written that he owns "połowy" of the village. So he owns only half of the village right? There is another person Antoni Wolski who is "posesor czesci" of the village. So he owns a part of the village? Here is a scan (no. 48 ): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1407440

Concerning Bronisława: Isn't there a name written behind "Wolska Z ..." ? She was the wife of Kalixt, right?

No, I'm not from UK. I'm from Germany.

Krzych.K - 01-01-2019 - 20:26
Temat postu:

Hi
Kris is fine.

Yes, it says half of the village. Antoni is 45 years old so he must be related to Kalikst.

Bronislawa - it says that he is a husband. Sorry, it is written as I mentioned it before - it is just a statement that they have checked that she passed away and on that basis they did the death certificate.

Kris
Please, state your first name at the end - T&C ( terms and conditions of this forum )
Regards

Krystyna.waw - 02-01-2019 - 11:36
Temat postu:

"posesor czesci" część = part of vilage
act 187
"dziedzic połowy Bielowic" - połowa = half
"wielmożna Bronisława Wolska/po przekonaniu)

Wolski_M92 - 02-01-2019 - 13:26
Temat postu:

Thank you both! And I think I also found the father of Gustaw and Kalixt Wolski here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1407440

I already knew that his name is Stanisław. He is in the right age and the document says he was "Heres medietatis Villa Bielowice". So he also owned half of the village. I suppose he passed it on Kalixt after his death. Isn't it logical?

Concerning my name: I'm Alex and I already added my name to my profile but it doesn't show up in the comments. I also added a signature and it doesn't show up either. I don't know why.

Krzych.K - 02-01-2019 - 19:29
Temat postu:

HI
signature set up:
Log in, click any topic in the forum, scroll up and click on Profile, scroll back down to preferences and there is a bit "Always attach my signature:" - it should be YES and - next Submit and that will allow your signature to be attached to your posts.

Wolski_M92 - 02-01-2019 - 20:04
Temat postu:

Ok, it worked that way. But it still doesn't work that my personal informations that I entered in my account are displayed. But that's ok, no problem for me. And by the way I don't see that giving the name is mandatory. In the account it says it's optional.

Wolski_M92 - 05-01-2019 - 18:12
Temat postu:

Here is a marriage act between Jozef Franciszek Ksawery Detmerski and Helena Maryanna Wolska in 1853 (no. 51): https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/155/0/-/ ... H9sI6EXSLg

There are so many dates that I don't know which one was the date of marriage. Could someone please tell me that and also where the marriage was?

Edit:

And here is a birth record of Leokadia Józefa Helena Detmerska (no. 71):
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/155/0/-/ ... bHTCAUWx9A

I see 01.01.1854 and 16.01.1854. What date is the birth date and what means the other date? What is the birth place, Płock?

Krystyna.waw - 07-01-2019 - 09:53
Temat postu:

Julian/Gregorian calendar

B 1854/71
"Działo się w mieście Płocku dnia 2/14 marca"

"dziecię płci żeńskiej urodzone xx xxxx 20 grudnia / 1 stycznia 1853/1854 roku o godzinie pierwszej i pół z rana z jego małżonki"

M 1853/51
działo się w mieście Płocku dnia 25 lipca / 6 sierpnia

Wolski_M92 - 07-01-2019 - 17:47
Temat postu:

Thank you Krystyna. I always refer to the Gregorian calendar.

Krystyna.waw napisał:

Julian/Gregorian calendar

B 1854/71
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/155/0/-/ ... bHTCAUWx9A
"Działo się w mieście Płocku dnia 2/14 marca"

"dziecię płci żeńskiej urodzone xx xxxx 20 grudnia / 1 stycznia 1853/1854 roku o godzinie pierwszej i pół z rana z jego małżonki"

So she was born on 01.01.1854 in Płock ("xxxx" is "w Płocku"). And what mean the other two dates? Was the baptism on 14.03.1854? And what was on 16.01.1854 (see line 11)?

Krystyna.waw napisał:

M 1853/51
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/50/155/0/-/ ... H9sI6EXSLg
działo się w mieście Płocku dnia 25 lipca / 6 sierpnia

You read record no. 53, but I mean no. 51. There the first date in line 1 is 24.07.1853. I understand that that's the day when they came to the church. Was that date also the day of the wedding? What mean the other dates? These are: 21.07. (line 5), 05.09. (line 13-14), 17.07. (line 18 ), 07.06. (line 22) - all in the same year.

Krystyna.waw - 07-01-2019 - 19:46
Temat postu:

B 1854/71
baptised: "odbytym dnia 4/16 stycznia"
I can't see "14.03.1854"

Wolski_M92 - 07-01-2019 - 20:27
Temat postu:

Thank you for the baptism date. The date "14.03.1854" you see at the beginning of the first line of the birth record "2/14 marca".

Krystyna.waw - 08-01-2019 - 18:44
Temat postu:

Four last lines - explanation why the act is written so late.
Too difficult for my eyes.

Wolski_M92 - 09-01-2019 - 16:58
Temat postu:

Thank you anyway.

Please look on this birth register in Latin:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1407440

Is the first colomn the baptization date or the birth date?

Krystyna.waw - 09-01-2019 - 18:48
Temat postu:

I see: Die 5ta 9bris (Ego qui supra) baptisavi
die 5ta = quinta
9bris = novembris

Wolski_M92 - 09-01-2019 - 18:59
Temat postu:

For me the last line on that document is interesting. I know that 10bris is December - so the date should be December the 3rd. Do you think it's the day of baptism?

Krystyna.waw - 09-01-2019 - 19:05
Temat postu:

Don't you see the word "baptisavi" or "baptisavit"?
I do Wink

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/baptiso#Latin

Wolski_M92 - 09-01-2019 - 19:18
Temat postu:

Of course I see. Cool

But I thought/hoped that maybe that date is not connected to the word "baptisavit".

Here is something more Latin zu read (no. 9):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1407440

Can you read what is written below the name of the father (Severyn Mieszkowsi)? And in the last colomn: "Domicillans in arce Szydlovecensi" = lived in the castle of Szydłowiec? Very Happy

Krystyna.waw - 10-01-2019 - 14:23
Temat postu:

I have no idea.
Why you don't ask professionals like them?
https://www.albertmartin.de/latein/forum/
http://forum.latein24.de/

Wolski_M92 - 10-01-2019 - 16:28
Temat postu:

Thank you for the links. I thought maybe someone of the people here knows it, because many of you already read a lot of those documents before. Wink

Have you ever heard of the name "Mora"? It's strange, because it seems to me that this name is not given at birth. For example one of my relatives is called Jan Nepomucen Felix Mora Mieszkowski. The name Mora was not registered in his birth record (see the link from yesterday above). But later he calls himself Jan Mora. Another person who I think is a relative too, is called Wojciech Mora Mieszkowski (I believe again that he didn't receive the name "Mora" at his birth). And I didn't see that name again.

Edit:

I just received the information that Mora is a coat of arms: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_(herb_szlachecki)

So Jan Nepomucen Felix Mora Mieszkowski belonged to that coat of arms.

Wolski_M92 - 13-01-2019 - 17:50
Temat postu:

Could someone tell me what the following lines in that marriage act mean:

"urodzone ... z Pelagii z Mieszkowskich Wilskiey zony Stanisława Wilskiego za slubem cywilnym mieszkających, ktorego ojciec dla aresztu cywilnego stawić sie nie mogł"

see here (no. 121): http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.ph ... amp;y=1155

Was the father of Pelagia or of Stanisław in jail?

EwaMolly - 14-01-2019 - 10:28
Temat postu:

That father of Antoni was in jail.

Wolski_M92 - 14-01-2019 - 16:53
Temat postu:

Thank you! So Stanisław Wilski was in jail. Would be interesting to know why.

Krystyna.waw - 14-01-2019 - 17:35
Temat postu:

"dla (because of) aresztu cywilnego'
areszt = arrest, custody not jail/prison
cywilny = civil code (not penal)

second possibility: civil not military custody

Arek_Bereza - 14-01-2019 - 17:44
Temat postu:

Look at that via google translator
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou ... 6NT9XH5_O6
It was arrest for debts ie

Wolski_M92 - 14-01-2019 - 18:01
Temat postu:

Thank you all! That's interesting. I read the English summary in that PDF. Any idea how long people got arrested for debts? What other reasons could mean a civil custody?

Wolski_M92 - 18-01-2019 - 15:42
Temat postu:

Could someone please answer me a few questions concerning the following marriage act?
http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.ph ... an=400.jpg

That's the marriage between Mikołaj Piątkowski and Marjanna Wolska in 1924 in Warszawa.

1. Are the parents of Mikołaj Piątkowski dead?
2. Was Mikołaj Piątkowski born in Moscow ("w Moskowie") or am I reading it wrong?
3. What is the name of the street where Mikołaj and Marjanna where living? I can only read the house number 5190.
4. Where Marjanna's parents Romuald and Kazimiera Józefa living in Czeladź (Powiat Będzin) or Warszawa? I think it's Czeladź.
5. Was Romuald Wolski a lawyer?

Last question: Does anyone know where I can search for birth records in Warszawa around 1924/25+? In the internet I can only find birth records until 1918. I searched the death records of 4 churches in Warszawa between 1924 and 1945 and couldn't find any child of the above mentioned couple nor their death.

Krystyna.waw - 19-01-2019 - 19:26
Temat postu:

1. yes
2. probably, hard to decipher
3. living together before marriage is the sin Wink

4. in Czeladź
4a. Piatkowscy: Warsaw, Twarda street. 5190 is the mortage number, not building.
https://www.srodmiescie.warszawa.pl/ulica-340.html
Go to
http://mapa.um.warszawa.pl/mapaApp1/map ... istoryczna
- rectangle on the map - nazwa, write Twarda, click
- down Twarda 1 - click
- right upper corner "zdjecia" - 1936
- Twarda 1 - click
- small numbers are mortage number. Look for 5190
5. Groom is the clerk in the bank, his father akrobata? I can't decipher

Wolski_M92 - 20-01-2019 - 12:51
Temat postu:

Hi Krystyna,

thank you for the link to the map. I found the house. It was destroyed during WW2 and later removed. I believe the couple was not living in Warszawa at wartime (didn't find death records of them or of possible children in Warszawa).

3. Yes it's a sin but nevertheless they lived in the same house. The address was the same as you can see in the document. Maybe they had separate appartments in that house.

5. No I don't think that Romuald Wolski (father of the bride) was an akrobat. He was an "adwokat". Wink

Krystyna.waw - 20-01-2019 - 13:44
Temat postu:

Adwokat of course. My mistake but they behave like acrobats so often... Wink

Cytat:

I believe the couple was not living in Warszawa at wartime (didn't find death records of them or of possible children in Warszawa)

Maybe you are right but...
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbrodnie_ ... arszawskim

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cmentarz_ ... w_Warszawy
About 100 000 people, most of them "no name"...

Wolski_M92 - 20-01-2019 - 14:13
Temat postu:

I searched in these churches:

Warszawa-Śródmieście - Wszystkich Świętych (1924-1936)
Warszawa-Leszno - Narodzenia NMP (1924-1945)
Warszawa-Mokotów - Św. Michała Archanioła (1924-1945)
Warszawa-Muranów - Św. Augustyna (1924-1936)
Warszawa-Wola - św. Stanisława (1924-1942)
Warszawa-Wilanow - Św. Anny (1924-1934 .. stopped searching here, senseless)

I thought if they got some children in Warszaw then maybe as so often in those times one could have died. But no, I didn't find anything. But these were only death records. The best thing would be to search the birth records but there are no birth records after 1918 available. Does anyone know where I can find them?

I hope they left Warszaw before these tragic events and had another fate. Is it possible to have a look at the names of the identified victims?

Krystyna.waw - 20-01-2019 - 16:30
Temat postu:

Mikołaj Piątkowski and Marjanna Wolska married in 1924
In 2024 birth acts will be open for everybody.
Today only close family has access

Wolski_M92 - 20-01-2019 - 17:09
Temat postu:

Yes, I was already concerned that birth records are only accessable after 100 years. So in 2024 I can officially see births until 1924. That's bad. What is close family? Marjanna Wolska is a sister of my great grand father. Is there also a blocking period for death records?

Krystyna.waw - 21-01-2019 - 14:20
Temat postu:

Wolski_M92 napisał:

Is there also a blocking period for death records?

Yes, 80 years
Close family = zstępni = descendants in the direct line, grandfather, grandgrand but not his sister or brother
Younger then 100 yrs acts family will find in Urząd Stanu Cywilnego and/or in the parish not in the archive.

Wolski_M92 - 21-01-2019 - 16:34
Temat postu:

Ok, thank you.

Wolski_M92 - 30-01-2019 - 18:14
Temat postu:

Can someone please help me reading the follwing marriage act (no. 39)?
http://metryki.genealodzy.pl/metryka.ph ... &y=254

Gottlieb Schmitke (priest writes the name as “Szmyt”) married Luise Klatt in Mariampol near Aleksandrów Łódzki. I have difficulties to read the birth places of Gottlieb Schmitke and Luise Klatt. I think the birth place of Gottlieb Schmitke is Holendry Skarżyn near Kalisz. Do you read the same? The birth place of Luise Klatt is also a "Holendry" but what is the other word?

And there is another place in this certificate that you can find three times there, called "B..... Huta". I can only read the second word "Hucie" so it must be "Huta". But what is the word starting with B?

Krystyna.waw - 30-01-2019 - 18:41
Temat postu:

I asked here:
https://genealodzy.pl/forum-genealogicz ... 4620.phtml

Wolski_M92 - 30-01-2019 - 18:51
Temat postu:

Thank you Krystyna. I received an answer.

Krystyna.waw - 31-01-2019 - 15:21
Temat postu:

Super.
I drugie super, że już wiesz, jak się poruszać po forum Smile

Wątek o miejscowościach znasz.

Jeszcze ten może ci się przydać w przyszłości: odcyfrowanie metryki po polsku
https://genealodzy.pl/forum-genealogicz ... 4688.phtml

Wolski_M92 - 31-01-2019 - 22:28
Temat postu:

Dziękuję Krystyna, wykorzystam ten wątek w przyszłości. Very Happy