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os2hughOffline
Temat postu: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 26-08-2015 - 05:01
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Witajcie, przyjaciele,

                               Czy ktoś tutaj wie, nikogo badam przodków Michalkiewicza z okolic Wilna, w szczególności obszar Suderwa-Mejszagola? Jeśli nie można kierować tego amerykańskiego naukowca do informacji o tych wiosek i historii obszaru lub.

Wielkie dzięki,

                                 Hugh Whiting
 
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SkrzyńskaJadwigaOffline
Temat postu: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 26-08-2015 - 19:49
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Hi,

I know Michalkiewicz family from Pinsk.
It was Polish family with partly Jewish roots, they had very good shop with always good quality food and good discount at evenig located at street close to the square.
They, some of them from younger generation, published in local press and they were very great polemists-controvercialists.
Their grandfather Salomon was even very popular rabbi at synagogue but later they got secularized and changed family to Michalkiewicz some years after the 1st WW.
But they moved somewhere before the 2nd WW and I don't know where to.

Best Regards
Jadwiga
 
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Wojciechowicz_KrzysztofOffline
Temat postu: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 26-08-2015 - 21:43
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Droga Jadwigo,

......They, some of them from younger generation, published in local press and they were very great polemists-controvercialists. .........................................................................

Are you referring to the well known Polish polemist Stanisław Michałkiewicz, a prominent anty-semite?
Thanks God, you haven’t responded to my post looking for my Lithuanian Wojciechowicz family roots. There is in Warsaw a certain rabbi Stas Wojciechowicz, born in 1970-ies in Tashkient, from some Polish father and a Jewish mother. His biography avoids any mention of his paternal roots – it was his mother who took him first to United States, then to Israel where he served in the army and changed his name to a Hebrew one. However, he came to Poland under his Polish name to serve as a rabbi.
So much for Michałkiewicz Jewish family roots, I believe!
As indicated by Hugh, his Michałkiewicz family comes not from Pinsk, but from Wilno area. This name is recorded in the area stretching from Wędziagoła through Niemenczyn, Mejszagoła to Daugieliszki. Some of these names can be found on Geneszukacz (Litwa).
They seem to be remotely related to my family (parfia Wędziagoła, marriage certificate 1834 - Antoni Woyciechowicz i Aniela Woytkiewiczówna):
– rodzice: Urodzonych Józefa i Bogumiły z Michałkiewiczow Woyciechowiczów ślubnych małżonkow syna z Urodzonych Tomasza i Rózy z Chaleckich Woytkiewiczów ślubnych małżonków córką......

Pozdrawiam

Krzysztof
 
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os2hughOffline
Temat postu: RE: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 27-08-2015 - 05:29
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Krzysztof and Jadwiga,

Thanks for your replies in English no less!!! As far as I know from dna tests to family history my ancestors have all been Roman Catholic's of peasant origin on the Michalkiewicz side of my paternal grandfather (Alexander Michalkiewicz) tree. Krzysztof this might be best answered by you, but I have a feeling that due to the enthic mixture of the Kresy area of the old Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth this might be quite impossible to answer. The question I have always wondered since discovering my Polish ancestors coming from the area of the Wilno Guberniya, is whether or not they were truly ethnic Poles or rather "Polonized Lithuanians"? I know my grandfather spoke Polish as did his father Jozef and mother Weronika (Szymkiewicz) both from the wilno area of the old country.
I will certainly check out the link to look at further information, it would certainly be intersting to find out we share a slight relation! Also I remeber seeing a Polish address book that showed a large number of Michalkiewicz's living in the area on the Baltic coast of near Gdansk. I think I remeber hearing after WW2 a large number of ethnic Poles were "resettled" or moved on their own from the Kresy areas to the areas ceded to Poland by Germany. I could be wrong though?
 
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Wojciechowicz_KrzysztofOffline
Temat postu: RE: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 27-08-2015 - 21:18
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After Partitioning in XVIII century Poland has lost a great part of her nobility. The partitioning powers didn’t like to sustain privileges to about ten percent of the country population – which at that time was Polish szlachta (nobles). Then insurrections, uprising and resulting confiscations further reduced their number. Many survivors were stripped of their noble status and pauperized. That’s why your family memories had been reduced to ‘peasant origin’. Michałkiewicz family coat of arms was called Kosciesza. However, in time, many of them might have become peasants, artisans or clerks.
You are right in assuming that number of Michalkiewicz's living in the area on the Baltic coast of near Gdansk most probably came after the War from Vilno area. The names ending –icz were most popular in the area of present Lithuania. If I come across any Michałkiewicz I will let you know.

Regards

Krzysztof
 
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RoRo500Offline
Temat postu: RE: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 28-08-2015 - 00:56
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Hi Hugh,
I looked at your records at Ancestry (great job tracking your ancestors). The oldest one born in 1810 - Marcin Michałkiewicz, son of Tomasz and Anna, has his parents listed as "pracowici". I would disagree with Krzysztof that there is any noble connection here. They seem to be truly of peasant origin. Another hint is that they live in a village Komaryszki, not in any of the neighboring noble settlements. I think this just underscores the importance of diligent, generation by generation genealogical research, which you have done, as opposed to name based armorial searches.
If you are interested in searching for one more generation - Suderwa records have been microfilmed by LDS: https://familysearch.org/search/catalog ... %20Library
The records go back to 1797.
Hope it helps,
Roman
 
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os2hughOffline
Temat postu: RE: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 28-08-2015 - 01:08
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Roman,

Thanks for the generous compliments, my real hope is the flesh out the rest of the sibling of my direct ancestors and to find the more tricky ones. My research has however provided some ancestors in the Szymkiewicz/Fronckiewicz side that show more prominent ie (noble, burghers:which I understand relates to middle-class). The Fronckiewicz's are listed as a "noble" family as in Jozef Fronckiewicz the father of my ancestor Jozefa Fronckiewicz. Given my limited Polish language skills (very limited) how does one tell if a village is a noble village or one for other classes? Is their a list, or perhaps one can tell by the name of the place?

Also as of note, it seems the Fronckiewicz's are from the Troki area, however Nowe Troki doesn't have any early baptisms of Fronckiewicz's. I am currently having the Lithuanian State Historical Archives looking into the Stare Troki area. It is frustrating because their daughter was born in Landwarow and baptized in Nowe Troki in 1864, yet her parents weren't married or baptized in Nowe Troki. I guess it's just a game of hit and miss.
 
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Wojciechowicz_KrzysztofOffline
Temat postu: RE: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 28-08-2015 - 15:43
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Do Romana:
Apparently poor Marcin Maichałkiewicz was married twice at the same time and at the same venue, with the same person. The marriage certificate quoted by Roman refers to the village Komaryszki, whereas I have a copy of the same document referring to ‘zaścianek Komaryszek. As there is hardly any person of Polish origin who hasn’t read “Nad Niemnem’ Orzeszkowej, the explanation what ‘zaścianek’ means seems superfluous. Bohatyrowicz family was also classified as ‘labouriuos’, but according to Orzeszkowa, they still possessed old documents confirming their nobility.

Krzysztof
 
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RoRo500Offline
Temat postu: RE: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 28-08-2015 - 17:08
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Krzysztof - If you pause, think, and read again my post, you may notice that the document I was referring to was Marcin's birth record. It simply lists Komaryszki. If you have an access to the marriage document that says "Zascianek Komaryszki", then it is a valuable information. My original comment was based on the fact that this place is listed on a WIG map as simple Komaryszki. Similarly, "Skorowidz miejscowości Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej" mentions this place as "osada", not "zaścianek". SGKP lists several "zaścianek Komaryszki", but none identified specifically in the Suderwa parish. You may be correct, just present some data to prove it. References to "Nad Niemnem" are not very useful, since it describes a reality from over half a century post Marcin's birth. In 1810, I would be very surprised if any person known locally as a noble was recorded intentionally as a peasant.
Roman
 
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os2hughOffline
Temat postu: Gentlemen I am very intrigued by this info  PostWysłany: 28-08-2015 - 18:01
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Krzysztof, Roman,

Thank you for your continued input and expertize on the questions I have. If you will permit me, I have a few more. The hit and miss nature of my searc[img]h for certain birth records has proven to be frustrating to say the least. I will give you considering the successes I have had, it is just all the more iritating that these other people just can't seem to be found.

As an example my friend Ola, who is a very skilled translator of old Cyrillic documents has found some interesting facts about another branch the Szymkiewicz's. My 2nd great grandfather Adolf Szymkiewicz who was born circa 1860-61 was married in the Kozakiszki parish just across the Neris river to Jozefa Fronckiewicz who was baptized in Nowe Troki in 1864 (I have her record). I have had the Archives in Wilno search for Adolf in the Kozakiszki, Jewie, Suderwa, Nowe Troki, Stare Troki baptism registers with no luck.

His marriage record from 1884 (which I am attaching) gives valuable information such as his age, and more importantly the names of his parents; Konstanty Szymkiewicz and Julia Dowt (which seems like a very strange surname, maybe a shortened name, or error by priest). He is also listed as according to the translation a "Wilno Burgher".

Now does this mean a burgher from the province of Wilno or an actual Wilno city inhabitant?? My fear is he might have been born or baptized in the city itself, which makes finding his birth record, or his parents marriage seemingly almost impossible (there were dozens of Roman Catholic parishes in the city in the early 1860's).

So there it is, if you have any more input I would be most appreciative. The Dowt surname seems odd (to me at least).


Dziekuje Bardzo,

Hugh

Here's the marriage record, if you wish to look yourselves.

https://mail.aol.com/webmail/getPart?ui ... 75+kop.jpg
 
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Wojciechowicz_KrzysztofOffline
Temat postu: RE: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 28-08-2015 - 18:59
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Do Romana:
See the original document here: http://econostatistics.co.za/images/mic ... ryszki.jpg

Please note a clear distinction between ‘Zaścianek Komaryszki’ and ‘Wieś Dombrowciszki’. The priest must have known his own parish.

Roku Pańskiego Tysięcznego Ośmsetnego trzydziestego pierwszego Miesiąca Listopada 8-go dnia w kościele parafialnym Rzymskokatolickim Suderwiańskim............
Pracowitych Marcina Michałkiewicza Młodziana lat Dwudziestu z Zaścianku Komaryszek z Maryanną Sobolewiczówną Dziewką lat Dwudziestu ze wsi Dombrowciszek Oboje z Parafii Suderwieńskiej.......


Your argument against ‘noble origin’ of Michałkiewicz family was based on the assumption that
‘they live in a village Komaryszki, not in any of the neighboring noble settlements’. And what else is Zaścianek Komaryszki if not one of the ‘noble settlements’?

Krzysztof
 
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os2hughOffline
Temat postu: RE: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 28-08-2015 - 21:34
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Krzysztof,

It would be interesting to find out exactly what the connection our families have. As an aside from what I have heard through stories passed down through the generations is that the Michalkiewicz's I descend from came from further west back in the old times before migrating to Wilno area. I think it was said the family might have originated in the Suwalki region, but thats just old stories so who knows how accurate they are.

Hugh
 
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RoRo500Offline
Temat postu: RE: rodziny Michalkiewicz z prowincji Wilnie  PostWysłany: 28-08-2015 - 21:44
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Hugh,
I will be happy to look at the marriage document you have, but the attached link does not work. It requires logging to AOL. If you would like, send me a message on PRIV and I will give you an e-mail contact to send the file.
Roman
 
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mlszwOffline
Temat postu:   PostWysłany: 28-08-2015 - 22:01
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Hi Hugh
Here are answers to some of your questions.

As to the terminology related to settlements – "wieś" denotes a settlement inhabited by peasants. This word corresponds roughly the English village. "Zaścianek" means that the settlement arose as a result of successive inheritance divisions, generation by generation, of a land that once belonged to a single nobleman. In theory, all inhabitants of a zaścianek have common ancestor and bear the same surname. In reality it is not the case, for daughters participated in such divisions. Then, there is also "okolica". Okolica was settled by petty nobility, but of diverse provenance. These terms were mostly scrupulously noted down in church registers, and hence you can make a supposition as to the social state of the person it pertains to. But remember that this may be misleading.

As to the burgher question. In the nineteenth century Russia all its inhabitants were strictly divided into separate castes, the so called "Сословие":
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0 ... 0%B8%D0%B5
The Russian nobility was sparse. When the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth fell, in the annexed territories the Russian administration launched an action, or rather a series of actions, aimed at reducing the number of the nobility of Polish origin. Through a series of decrees former petty nobility, mostly poor people, were ultimately forced to join either peasant estate or burgher estate. This action was completed by roughly 1868. There were strict rules as to who could join the burgher estate and the towns kept books of registers of its burghers. Not entering the details, the person must have had some business connection with the town they registered with. The conclusion is that the fact that Konstanty Szymkiewicz was Wilno burgher does not mean he lived there and in particular that he was born there.

Finally, Dowt sounds like a decent Lithuanian surname to me.
Greetings
mlszw
 
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os2hughOffline
Temat postu:   PostWysłany: 29-08-2015 - 07:40
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My Polish friends,

I forgot to mention on other theory on why I can't find some of the Szymkiewicz records. Perhaps he was baptized as a Greek Catholic then married in a Roman rite church (beacuase his wife was Roman Catholic)? Not that it is a sure thing but with a father named Konstanty ( A popular eastern rite/orthodox saint; St. Constantine)? Msybe a dead end but I am not sure the number of Greek catholics in the area.

Hugh
 
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